this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2023
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and now the federation drama begins...
There is nothing dramatic about it. Defederating from problematic instances is nothing new for federated platforms.
Access to content should not be difficulted by puritan views. If people enjoy gore and create an instance about gore in movies showing very explicit (yet fictional) images of dismemberments and stuff in movies it should be banned too because is morally questionable?
If you can't distinguish between fiction and reality it should be a you problem not the whole instance you are inhabiting problem
What do you think about this? (sorry the article is in Spanish, but there is no English article)
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C3%B1os_en_la_playa
It's a painting exposed in an important museum
Access to content should be based on LEGALITY though. And it turns out this is ILLEGAL in a lot of places.
Michelangelo's David is pornography in a lot of places. let's forbid it everywhere
And, uh, Poland. You know. That place where ernest is from, and whose laws he's beholden to.
Why not just create a separate account for nsfw stuff? Why would you need it on the front page of your main account while scrolling anyways?
We're not talking about pornography laws that were enacted with no basis in harm reduction, we're talking about child porn laws that were enacted to not encourage and normalize pedophiles and pedophilia.
Some laws are justifiable, some are arguable, and some are completely unjustifiable, throwing out an unjustifiable one in contrast to a firmly justifiable one is not debating, it's childish nonsense.
lgbt people are illegal in the middle east. should we ban lgbt people too?
loli/shota don't refer to underage fictional content.
I think this loli/shota hate can indeed lead to real oppression yes. I'm an adult, I look like a minor. Do you believe it should be illegal for me to send nsfw photos of myself to people? To have a relationship with another adult? simply because I look underage? This is the sort of thing we're talking about here. Should I be banned from posting pics of myself simply because of the way I look?
lemmynsfw already explicitly stated they ban underage content. so to bring up underage content is dishonest.
Again, loli does not refer to age. You're confused. There are underage and underage looking anime characters. some who are loli and some who are not.
this isn't "they're a child and I just say they're older". non-loli anime children look different from loli anime adults.
lemmynsfw is clearly banning underage content and content that looks underage.
no matter how much you wish to try and twist words, the reality is that "oppai loli" is a thing that exists, and simply cannot refer to a child. to say that such is a child just shows you do not understand biology.
In terms of legality, I agree that if the server host is somewhere with particular laws, it's understandable that those laws must be followed. Perhaps lemmynsfw's ruling leads to illegal content for wherever kbin is hosted. In that case, I think it is fine for kbin to defederate.
Loli/shota do not refer to age. And lemmynsfw afaik has not allowed illegal content.
Here's a handy guide. Notably you'll probably be interested in uzaki and hestia who are clearly mature (have large breasts). all of the loli characters in the image are canonically adults, most of whom are natural ages (no 5000 years shit) and clearly look like adults. The only one that even remotely looks like a child here is hayase. Under the "not loli" section we see a list of canonically underage characters. most of whom are teenage and have either teenage or adult physiology drawn in a non-loli style.
For reference here is a child with two teens.
As you can see, loli is not an age. There are child characters in anime, including underage-looking adult characters, who are loli. However, loli does not exclusively refer to these sorts of characters. When I read lemmynsfw's rules, it's clear they would ban nsfw imagery of the child character in the second image, of a character like hayase, while allowing the rest.
I'd like to understand where you are coming from though. In the first image, do you think all of those characters "appear underage"? Do you think they should all be banned?
Edit: both pics are sfw.
The entire point of loli is that they look underage, and the whole loli industry is held up by paedos lmao
Speaking as a weeb, the comment with the link is probably the best comment to try and understand where Otome-chan is coming from. (I tried replying to it, but threading breaks this many levels deep)
The bigger problem is that "loli" has become an appropriated term. It means different things to different people, and it's almost impossible to reach a rational consensus about it between in-groups and out-groups. To people outside the anime community it just means "pedo ~~bait~~ wank material", and anyone who argues is "clearly" splitting hairs and trying to defend an unjustifiable fetish. (Edit: To be clear here I didn't mean pedo bait in the "borderline" context that Otome-chan interpreted it below. Editing this in because I don't want to belabor this topic with another reply.)
I like shortstacks. I don't think normalizing pedophilia as an acceptable fetish in polite company is okay, keep that shit to yourself. I don't think the person I'm replying to endorses carte blanche pedophilia on kbin. Hardliners are still going to insist that these concepts are mutually exclusive, but I think that's as far as the discussion can usefully go.
In practice there's two kinds of lolis IMO. there's the stereotypic kind which is similar to chibi characters. there's pretty much unanimous consensus that these should not be involved in nsfw. then there's the "pedo bait" kind as mentioned, which is basically the anime equivalent of "recent 18" (but at any age). short, flat, youthful, not overtly a child.
it seems obvious that lemmynsfw has banned the former, and allowed the latter.
As for pedophilia: my stance is this: pedophilia is a mental disorder and those people should get medical treatment and help, CP of real people should be banned entirely and illegal. It is never okay.
no? I just did a quick search, found it to be a useful guide, and shared.
yes they are indeed quite similar. hestia is borderline loli at best, but the point remains. Oshino is perhaps the best example of a typical loli character in that image.
Because you're failing to understand what loli actually is. First, there is a spectrum of appearances and styles. But second, that it's really not about age. It's a similar sort of situation to "chibi" which are also not children.
Yes so the characters shown in that pic do fall under "loli" but loli does not only refer to characters that look like that. loli characters can look like adults. they can look underage. they can be adults. they can be underage. they can look like a mix of underage and adult. Wikipedia's example is perhaps the most "extreme" usage of the word, which makes sense since it's trying to provide an example of the concept unambiguously. though a variety of examples are really needed tbh.
I mean you're free to think as you please. but it's clear you'd consider any man who dates me to be a pedophile which is obviously laughable.
Sure then I think it's a communication breakdown. When most people speak of nsfw imagery of lolis and say it's fine, they're talking about stuff like this (sfw example). undeniably a loli, not obviously a child. might be a teen or adult from visuals. The example wikipedia has is the other "popular" type of loli character, who typically do not show up in nsfw content except the most extreme, are considered 'looking underage' and pretty much banned from most nsfw stuff and lemmynsfw clearly has banned it.
To me, lemmynsfw's post seems to suggest the image I shared is allowed, while the image you shared is not. Is this not the interpretation you got as well? When people react harshly, to me I think it's because they are probably looking at that wiki image thinking that's what lemmynsfw is allowing (when it's not).
"loli" refers to both types.
I looked underage for most of my adult life thus far, guess what I did? Dealt with it and enjoyed my life, I didn't insist that we should be able to freely publish nudes of myself so that pedos can jerk off to them.
Hell we're not even talking about free society here, if you look underage but are overage you're still free to exhibit your body in whatever art exhibit you want, digital or irl, that doesn't mean kbin should allow potentially illegal loli content to show up in users' feeds.
Did you not read my comment? I just said that if it is indeed illegal where the server is hosted, then defederating to follow such laws is understandable and okay.
If it's not illegal though? no issue.
This has nothing to do with banning and everything to do with filtering. Especially at this early moment when everyone lacks the ideal tools and functions to curate your iwn content across the Fediverse.
For now, you can always access both kbin and lemmy from a third instance thats federated with both, regardless of their direct federation to each other. When more tools exist for users to curate their own experience we can always federated up again.
Ireland is a third world country, literally
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
And Ireland remained neutral, like other countries Finland, Sweden, Switzerland or Austria, making those countries third world countries, literally
Saying or implying third world countries are underdeveloped/poor countries is just a really bad stereotipe and shows your inculture
If you know what the words mean why are you being so stubborn about it?
They compared jacking it to underage-looking cartoons to playing video games - I think they're a nonce in denial lmao
Comparing the defederation of an instance for allowing underage sexual content with the very real discrimination faced by LGBTQ+ people is one of the shittiest takes I have seen.
lemmynsfw explicitly stated they don't allow underage content.
Yeah even fictional suggestive content is illegal in Canada. And I'm glad!