this post was submitted on 21 Jun 2023
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EDIT 2: Ruud has posted some guidelines for community moderation

EDIT: I want to clarify that the purpose of this post isn't to call anyone out in particular, and I think it's best to approach this issue with a gentle hand. Users who are doing this aren't necessarily ill intentioned, but may not realize the negative affect their actions may be having on the instance, hence why it's important to have this discussion. That being said, I removed the link to the user originally mentioned in this post to avoid any possible witchhunts.

Original Post:

I'm not sure what to call them, but I've noticed a few instances of users on this server creating dozens, and in some cases over a hundred different communities, and doing absolutely nothing with them. No sidebar description, no logo, banner, welcome post, or anything.

I understand that some people may be doing this in good faith in an effort to make sure that these spaces exist in the first place. That's fine and all - as long as you're allowing other community members to step in and help maintain and grow these spaces you've created, I don't really have a problem with it.

However, I think there are a good amount of people who are grabbing communities... just to squat on them? For some odd reason?

Take a look at this user's account [redacted]. Doing a little poking around, it seems they're an account that's owned by a [redacted] company based in [redacted]. They also don't have a single post or comment on record. So... Why do they own over 100 communities, many of which are simply duplicates of existing, popular Reddit subs?

I think the biggest problem here is that we may have users who want to create, cultivate, and grow communities that they feel strongly about, but when you go to set up a community only to find that it's owned by someone who isn't putting in any effort to make it a place for discussion, or outright doesn't care about it at all, it's going to discourage people from wanting to contribute in that way. First impressions are important, and these users might be turned off of Lemmy from an abundance of seemingly dead or spam communities.

What do you guys think? Is this an 'issue' worth thinking about, or will it sort itself out with time? I know it may not be super important in the grand scheme of things, but it's a question that's been on my mind for a few days now.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

A few thoughts on this no particular order:

  • perhaps there should be rate limits for users trying to create new communities?
  • perhaps communities should expire into the wild if they are bagged and not used for X days/weeks?
  • perhaps there needs to be some manual burden to keep 'bagged' but unused communities live, say every five days a prompt "hey looks like you are not using xyz community. If you still need it please solve this CAPTCHA, how many of these squares contain road signs?"

The term 'unused' would probably need finessing since a bot could likely post junk once a week to keep things from flagging, for that reason you might be wise not to be too transparent about what rules are being used, just that there are rules and checks?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I would normally say that those problems solve themselves with time, but the account you linked is indeed suspicious, only 18 hours old, 0 posts and 0 comments, and being mod of 169 communities.

I would report it to the admins to keep an eye on it, in case their purpose is spamming.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If this problem isn't under control, then I suppose people will just make a community with the same name on another instance with more strict community creation standards.

But it'll damage the perception of THIS instance if this was not addressed.

So, I'd just say do:

  • Limit the maximum number of communities one person can mod (10 per user is too generous, I'd say 5 max, unless they've shown themselves to be able to mod well)

  • Remove them from communities they've started where they are clearly not interested in build a community and are just squatting for whatever reason, like zero activity, or having it just to prevent people from posting there (Remember r/blackfather? Yeah. Bad look.)

  • and prevent them from starting new communities/bans for repeated offenders.

Ultimately, this is up to the admins though.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

There's a question here about whether or not /c require a community. You might be the only one interested in whatever, or your /c might just not be of interest.

I say this as someone who on other site had a simple /r where I just reposted things I found interesting to my friends, (all 4 of them) who mostly lurked with the occasional upvote.

I think that in creating 'rules' or 'guidelines' like this, we've got to be flexible enough to allow for very, very small communities to exist without requiring a level of community interaction.

It may be better to have a 'minim effort' level? Like, fill out sidebar, have one post every X months, something like that?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I came to lemmy.world hoping to create a community to replace my favorite subreddit. I found that the community had already been created but, like you describe - no logo, no sidebar. Also, as you describe, the moderator of that community had reserved multiple other communities. I began posting to the community in the hopes of generating activity, and I messaged the mod offering to help with moderation. The mod did not respond, so I messaged ruud to say that this mod appeared to be squatting on the community name - I pointed out that the mod had created neither logo nor sidebar. ruud contacted the mod, who immediately banned me from the community. The mod filled out the sidebar (a copy/paste from the reddit sidebar), this was obviously only in response to the concerns that I had raised. The community otherwise remains dormant and the mod is not actively maintaining it. Very frustrating. It is exactly because of this kind of nonsense that I looked for an alternative to reddit but it seems that lemmy is no better.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hi @[email protected]. Adding the banner and sidebar info is only part of the guidelines. There should also be more than one mod (depending on the size of the community ofcourse) and if there is no activity there and he is actually just squatting that community we can talk about it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thanks for getting back to me. He said that he is holding on to the community name until he can hand it over to reddit mods, but it's been two weeks - I would call that squatting. He only created the sidebar after I pointed out its absence. Then he banned me without warning or communication - I believe that this was in retaliation for me questioning his motives. I discussed it all with ruud but got no resolution.

I'm no longer interested in helping with moderation at lemmy.world, just sharing my experience since it's relevant to this thread.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Mind telling me which community this is about?

Ruud just made me admin here since he's got so much on his plate, so I'm here with some extra hands. Doesn't matter if you're no longer interested in being a mod, we just updated some community guidelines. So if it's not for you maybe for someone else

Enjoy your day!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I think it's basically a gold rush. Being the mod of a major sub got you some bragging rights but also commercial advantages.

I went to register a community for my city yesterday and found that somebody, just 2 hours prior, registered it along with easily 100 other popular subreddit names as well. I assume he just wants to benefit by being there already when the users eventually arrive.

My vote (if we even get one, lol) is to limit registrations to a certain # per day/week per account - perhaps 3 your first day and then 1 per day after that for now. Then after some time, enable some type of auto-expiration if the sub isn't being actively used or moderated by that user - with some kind of warning process ahead of course.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

A fantastic part of Fediverse is that while someone may squat on c/pics on lemmy.world, nothing is stopping someone else actually launching that community on another instance. If that other person is actually growing the community - it will very quickly become the default recommendation in relevant searches.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

A similar-ish thing happens with Facebook groups - even though it's obviously not federated. Two groups can have the same name and each can compete for active users.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I was thinking about this today and would love to see a limit established. I don't think it's unreasonable to create a 10 limit rule. I can't see how it wouldn't be a good thing. Quality of moderation would be greater.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I agree in premise but it doesn't stop people from just having numbered (or whatever) alt accounts to then create as many as they want.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Limit to own max 1-2 communities and mod max 5 communities (including the ones you own) + setup and comment activity requirements.

Make it hard work gaming the system but still no obstacle for those who want to actually run a couple of communities.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I found an account like you are talking about; like you, I won't name them. Zero posts, zero comments, moderator of hundreds of communities, most of which have no engagement.

Their user profile does have a banner, though: a banner advertising a product that is the same as their username. Is it reasonable to conclude this is some kind of bizarre advertising effort? If it were, though, I would expect them to post and try to generate engagement. As it stands, no one will ever see the ad unless they go to a community with no members and decide to click on the mod's profile.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

There's a chance we could be referring to the same person. Does their company have anything to do with a fermented tea drink?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Probably who I came here to gripe about too - zero posts, zero everything, and is in control of a couple communities i wouldn't mind contributing to. The city I live in is one of his squats, and while we had a rather slow posting day, it was nice to get the local goss. None of us who have made the move want to touch the squatted community

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

They own over 300 communities at this point. I'd just report them and message Ruud or one of the admins and ask for control.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago

Thank you for discovering this and bringing it to our attention. I don’t have much to add, other than I hope the admins and community can address and fix this.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Piggybacking off of this, how do people generally feel about good-faith community squatting?

Like most people here I'm sure, I'm part of the reddit Exodus. I was never a regular or very active participant of any particular sub, I casually browsed and occasionally commented on probably hundreds of different ones. Most of the biggest ones of course already have close Lemmy equivalents that aren't too hard to find, but a few haven't quite made the jump yet.

I have no real interest in being a mod or anything of the sort, but I've thought about grabbing a few of the community names to give others a landing space to reestablish some of the communities that existed on Reddit so when they search for them here they see a familiar name pop up with the intention of turning them over to the reddit mods or someone else who has actual interest in running those communities, and then wash my hands of it. Mostly I just want to make sure that they don't get snatched up by some spammer/bot/absentee mad asshole/etc. before someone with actually interest in running the community has a chance to claim it.

I don't know if that's something people here would generally approve of, and I haven't given a whole lot of thought to how I would actually work that. Probably something like sit on it for about a month hoping a former reddit mod shows up, and if they don't, I'd turn it over to the first person who expresses interest and makes a compelling argument for what they'd like to do with it.

And if I did go that route, I don't know what kind of proof/verification/credentials I should ask for to verify that the person was mod, or to make sure they were actually any good at their jobs and not some power-tripping, karma-farming, superuser powermod asshole who made reddit a shittier place. And while I waited for someone else to step up, those communities would probably go almost completely unmoderated, which wouldn't exactly help them to grow and get established here.

Just looking for other's thoughts on this.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

My current intent is to "garden"; to bootstrap the site with communities and then release them if they reach critical mass and have a competent moderation team (excluding me).

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I'm not convinced this is a major issue that needs a coordinated response.

  • There are hundreds of Lemmy servers, one can always make a community with the same name on another server. If an account is mass-registering one or more names across dozens or hundreds of servers, I'd consider that abuse that warrants a ban and closure of the communities.
  • If you want to mod that community on that server, talk to them and ask to join the mod team. If they don't respond, petition the server admin to oust them as inactive.

Creating dozens of communities and then ignoring them is irritating, but unless it becomes quite common and is coupled with follow-up behaviors to keep the inactive communities, it's not real clear that it matters.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I guess there could be some super-mod or something who goes around, notifies subscribers of duplicate communities that they need to move because they're going to delete that community.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's a bird... It's a plane...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

It’s Super-Mod!

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Personally I think people should be limited to 1 community and if they grow that successfully then be allowed to create more.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

That approach doesn't make much sense for how community creation works, in my experience at least. On reddit I tried several times to create subs (r/ProgrammingNoContext, r/Reallifelowpoly, etc etc.) before any took off (r/Subnautica_Below_Zero). Having a sub take off on Lemmy, with it's much smaller community would be much greater. Of course I wasn't snagging any good community names with the earlier ones. I think the best solution would be for instance admins to replace mods when they're just squatting.