this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2021
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Linux

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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What desktop Linux needs to succeed in the mainstream (drewdevault.com)
submitted 3 years ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 26 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (4 children)

I have to disagree on this. The Linux Desktop (once installed) is ready for "normal" users and has been so for years; and not just theoretically, I personally have installed Linux on several PCs and the only maintenance I have to do is reinstalling it when the person buys a new PC.

I think this is true for 80% of the users out there, who basically use their PC as a "click here to open browser" device (and viewing some photos etc.). However, ChromeOS does that even better than Linux admitably.

The problem is with the 20% Windows power-users / gamers, for whom Linux is not a suitable replacement as it works differently and is easy to break if you have only dangerous half-knowledge. While these people certainly would be capable of learning Linux, I don't really see that happening as they often show open hostility to any system that is doing things differently than what they are used to... and in a sense that is understandable as it is a sunk cost fallacy of having spend considerable time to learn how Windows operates.

I highly doubt that Linux will be ever able to cater to those 20%, even if there are certainly some areas that could be improved. But those users will just find some other issue to nitpick about...

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 years ago (1 children)

I agree with @[email protected]
What a Linux desktop needs is a user, who's able to think and who not assumes that it has to work the way he is used to from Windows. Many are simply unwilling to learn and therefore reject Linux.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago (2 children)

I don't think this is the problem. GNU/Linux desktop are more than capable to provide a Windows-like UX with KDE + AppImage.

The problem in my personal opinion is that there's bugs everywhere. All desktops are written in memory-unsafe languages and keep on reinventing the same wheels over and over again, reintroducing subtle bugs.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 years ago (1 children)

oh boy … this “memory-unsafe”-argument again 🤦
Even with a Windows looking desktop UI and usage of AppImages, it's still no Windows! There are no .exe-Files for drivers and games. There is no Microsoft account you need to login to. There is no “installer” who ask for the path you want to install your program.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 years ago

oh boy … this “memory-unsafe”-argument again 🤦

What's wrong with the argument that playing compiler in your head is both a waste of energy and a sure way to write bugs? Aren't you tired of unexpected resource usage, stuff that should work that reaches hard-to-reproduce edge-cases, and kids bypassing your screensaver.

There are no .exe-Files for drivers and games.

Really? Then what is Wine/NDISWrapper for? I've used Windows games and drivers in the past on my GNU/Linux system, and some of them sure used .exe extension.

There is no Microsoft account you need to login to.

Isn't that a good thing? Also many people still use older windows where cloud login doesn't exist. Does that mean it's not Windows?

There is no “installer” who ask for the path you want to install your program.

Yet GNU defined the standard --prefix to choose where to install your software (make --prefix /Program\ Files/foobar).

I mean sure there's no equivalent of the registry, Aero/Metro UI toolkit, Cortana, or centralized Windows store (except on Ubuntu with snap). But who said we had to have the bad bits? ;)

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 years ago (1 children)

appimage is easy for me now, but it took me forever 2 years ago to figure out that --no-sandbox addition needed and i still am annoyed that I often have a problem getting the icon on a menu or panel.
i think we should be open to criticism so that we can improve Linux and thereby starve the BigTech beast. If you have weeds in your garden, don't make excuses for them, yank them out or allow them to grow in more appropriate places.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 years ago (1 children)

I've used AppImages a bunch but i've never heard about "--no-sandbox" so far. Do you know of apps that won't run without it?

i still am annoyed that I often have a problem getting the icon on a menu or panel.

I've personally had good luck with AppImageLauncher in the past, but lately i just run apps from terminal. There's also a bunch of other solutions. Let me know what worked for you :)

i think we should be open to criticism so that we can improve Linux and thereby starve the BigTech beast.

100% agree.

If you have weeds in your garden, don’t make excuses for them

Some weeds are really good for your garden's ecosystem in fact, but that's off-topic :)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 years ago

Since electron was apgraded or fixed, that appendage is no longer needed. I read that all of those appimages were made using electron. I did have AppImageLauncher and used it a first, but forgot about it. No longer have it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 years ago

The Linux Desktop (once installed) is ready for “normal” users and has been so for years

As someone who supports many novice GNU/Linux users, i think this is true, but there's many papercuts along the way. Every desktop environment is broken in subtle ways: the closest to a stable/consistent whole i GNOME but even it sometimes has services eating up resources unexpectedly, and is hard for users to tweak (too much reliance on extensions for what should be basic settings which are much easier to discover for users).

I'm not saying Windows is better: on Windows the "basic" experience works well but as soon as you start installing software, stuff will break in random ways until you have to reinstall from scratch.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 years ago (1 children)

In my opinion it already succeeded

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 years ago (1 children)

This. It's the most-used mobile phone os, and now in Windows you and install WSL2 with a click and run any Linux app, including X apps.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 years ago

Well I've been using Linux as my main desktop OS for so long I don't even remember when it was not a seamless out-of-the-box experience. Like, 15 years ago?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 children)

I'd say something:

  • lightweight
  • available across architectures
  • easily customisable
  • with either an app store, or an easy, reliable way to load a wide variety of apps, and
  • convergent.
[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (2 children)

easily customisable

Would be cool to have a configuration standard for desktop applications (gsettings?!)

Some ideas:

  • key:value store
  • fixed (extendable) datatypes (so idiots won't put json in there)
  • organizeable as a tree for discoverability
  • access control
  • dbus interface (?!)
  • editable as text files (FUSE fs, but I guess then there is no acces control)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 years ago (1 children)

I'll readily admit to being what the author of the article doesn't believe exists : a not very techie long-time Linux user, enthusiast and advocate.

But I've managed to flash Ubuntu and Lubuntu onto a couple of laptops, and UBPorts' Ubuntu Touch on a Nexus 5 - I can follow instructions!

There's an unequal playing field... PCs come already flashed with OSs most of the time. i.e. it's not the Linux GUIs that're necessarily user-unfriendly. The barrier to adopting GNU/Linux is probably the fear of bricking your tech.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 years ago (1 children)

I can follow instructions!

Most distributions know the value of writing proper documentation and faqs. Sadly many don't bother reading it. And then the Linux community (whatever that is supposed to mean at this point) is toxic because they told someone to rtfm :/

From my experience it's mostly technical people who don't read the manual properly. Of course software should come with sane and more importantly secure defaults, but not so admins can be lazy…

The barrier to adopting GNU/Linux is probably the fear of bricking your tech.

Thats why live-images are so cool, you can try everything out before you install and even if you brick that installation you still have a working system. You just have to get people to leave the image on their USB-drive, which isn't as easy as it sounds :D

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 years ago

:) Yeah

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 years ago

Your idea is basically already living in GNU Guix or NixOS.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago (1 children)

that’s some tripe shit. the linux approach isn’t one os. it’s very wise in its offerings for but the user interface and customization. windows doesn’t have that at all.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 years ago

Linux is just the kernel, but we lack a common "system" layer. I found this talk really refreshing from a BSD perspective.

There's the freedesktop specifications but there's quite a bunch they don't cover. What are the reasons why every desktop environment needs to rewrite their own file browser, calculator and email client? I wish we had more specifications so that parts become interchangeable and desktop environments can focus on building a good desktop: let desktop-agnostic apps be the apps.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 years ago

Most desktops or distros are too heavy and you can have problems uninstalling the bloat you don't want. Most people don't even use an optical drive anymore, yet xfburn comes with Xfce and will break your system when you remove it. KDE has one meta-package with about 15 items and I only want 2 of those, but can't separate them. Make packages more ala carte and allow us to install them and uninstall them one by one. No more of these meta-packages! Better GUI package managers (that you can safely uninstall once you learn Linux better) seems like a great idea. I dislike KDE, but their GUI package manager is awesome. I think Linux leaders need to do what some businesses do: ask on a frequent basis what users like and dislike. What confuses them, what caused them to break their system or leave Linux. IT people may predominantly be independent types and Linux techies even more so. The downside is that means Linux is likely to be more fragmented and that Linux devs don't work together enough or communicate well enough with each other. (But, i detest the interference by Canonical, RedHat, IBM, or other BigTech) One of my biggest gripes is that more keyboard shortcuts aren't consistent. I should be able to use the same in any distro, DE/WM, nano or other text editor, a web browser, terminal, etc. But, that isn't all Linux's fault. Linux users need to stop telling newbies to use Arch or Fedora. Tell them to start with something both easy to install and easy to use. After a while, the user can distro hop or switch. Ubuntu with Gnome or Mint are easiest. Suggest those.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 3 years ago

that’s some tripe shit. the linux approach isn’t one os. it’s very wise in its offerings for but the user interface and customization. windows doesn’t have that at all.