this post was submitted on 27 Mar 2025
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[–] blackbelt352@lemmy.world 307 points 1 week ago (11 children)

Penn Gilette has always seemed to be driven by a level of honesty and compassion and valued the freedom to choose where to direct that compassion. I think earlier on he viewed other libertarians as having the same level of honest compassion as he does but over time it's become more and more clear that libertarians are overwhelmingly selfish rich white guys who don't want to be called Repuiblicans.

I mean in the early 2000s he was calling bullshit on the hysteria over the vaccine autism link saying the alternative of kids dying to preventable diseases is so much worse. He even gave the tenuous link a benefit of the doubt and accepted that even if they did cause autism,t he alternative is so much worse.

[–] CosmicTurtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 105 points 1 week ago (1 children)

There aren't many people who are willing to evaluate their entire political decisions and come to the conclusion that they were wrong. Even fewer who will admit it publicly. Even fewer still who will accept responsibility and then do something about it.

Of the people I have respectfully disagreed with, the fact that he's come around is a huge testament to his willingness to be humbled and corrected.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 35 points 1 week ago (6 children)

There aren't many people who are willing to evaluate their entire political decisions and come to the conclusion that they were wrong

I doubt that his ideology actually changed much, but instead he just realized that the Libertarian Party didn't actually match it like they claimed to do.

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[–] AnAmericanPotato@programming.dev 56 points 1 week ago (21 children)

he viewed other libertarians as having the same level of honest compassion as he does but over time it’s become more and more clear that libertarians are overwhelmingly selfish rich white guys who don’t want to be called Repuiblicans

I had a similar progression myself when I was in my teens, maybe even early 20s.

The basic principle of libertarianism is appealing: mind your own damn business and I'll mind mine. And I still agree with that in general — it's just that a single generality does not make a complete worldview. It took me a while to realize how common it is for self-identifying libertarians to lack any capacity for nuance. The natural extreme of "libertarianism" is just anarchy and feudalism.

In a sane world, I might still call myself a libertarian. In a sane world, that might mean letting people live their own damn lives, not throwing them to the wolves (or more literally, bears ) and dismantling the government entirely.

I'm all for minding my own business, but I also acknowledge that maintaining a functional society is everybody's business (as much as I occasionally wish I could opt out and go live in a cave).

[–] NABDad@lemmy.world 36 points 1 week ago (1 children)

One problem with libertarianism and the other selfish philosophies is that humanity absolutely cannot survive at all without a massive amount of cooperation.

Assholes who think they can do it on their own are completely delusional.

If you eliminate everything from your life that required the cooperation of another human being, it's likely you're naked, starving, and freezing to death.

"Oh, I can hunt for food.'

Really? With just your bare hands? Maybe your naked ass will get lucky and nail a squirrel with a rock, but what are you going to do when a mountain lion decides you're the squirrel?

Even if you manage to make some rock tools and weapons, you didn't figure that out on your own. Someone told you about it.

Knowledge is the biggest advantage humans have going for them. Without sharing knowledge that others discovered, most people wouldn't last long enough to matter.

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[–] kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world 32 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yeah, I don't have any problem with libertarianism in theory. Pro-civil liberties, anti-racism, anti-war, pro-choice, pro-guns, free markets, etc. I disagree with the value of some of it, but I can see why someone might thoughtfully and sincerely come to that sort of rationale. I've never really had a problem with Penn's (and Teller's) views because of that.

But the reality is that the majority of modern libertarians are just narcissist capitalists that do not like rules or laws that restrict them from doing anything they want. That or, way worse, they're Ayn Rand ideologues who genuinely believe that self-service is a moral imperative, charity is immoral, poverty is personal failure, human life is measured in productivity, and the sick, poor, or malformed should be left to whatever fate the market gives them. Those types are some of the worst people on the planet. They see a wealthy capitalist as inherently a leader and role model and think he should be unconstrained from accumulating more wealth without concern for society, employees, or individual rights. We're living in the light version of their ideal, and it gets closer to that ideal every day.

[–] Manifish_Destiny@lemmy.world 32 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The libertarian party used to be considerably different as well. It certainly became something different entirely around 2012-2016.

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[–] Walican132@lemmy.today 143 points 1 week ago (6 children)

The smartest people in the room are those who are willing to admit a mistake, or that their opinions have changed.

[–] ZoopZeZoop@lemmy.world 35 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The wisest people in the room will be able to do that, but I don't think you have to have had different/the wrong opinion to have that status. The wisest people listen, consider, and use all available information to make the best possible decisions.

[–] Walican132@lemmy.today 25 points 1 week ago

Wise is definitely the better word to use here.

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[–] maporita 113 points 1 week ago (13 children)

"A lot of the illusions that I held dear, rugged individualism, individual freedoms, are coming back to bite us in the ass. It seems like getting rid of the gatekeepers gave us Trump as president, and in the same breath, in the same wind, gave us not wearing masks, and maybe gave us a huge unpleasant amount of overt racism."

Hats off to a man willing to admit he made a mistake.

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[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 111 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (14 children)

As a big fan of P&T, this is a major win.

Not to mention the veganism which is also closely related to rejecting fascism.

https://vegnews.com/magician-penn-jillette-goes-vegan-for-the-animals

(Full disclosure: I saw an interview where Penn says he went vegan for health and weight loss. But maybe he's evolved to animal liberation as well.)

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[–] klu9 105 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Cool to see the meme applied to someone who genuinely went to clown college!

[–] bamboo@lemmy.blahaj.zone 43 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I'll thank you not to refer to Princeton that way.

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[–] itsgroundhogdayagain@lemmy.ml 85 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (77 children)

I considered myself a Libertarian for a few years. I was a disillusioned Republican during the George Bush days and Libertarianism really grew on me. I voted for Gary Johnson twice.
As I became more concerned about climate change, I could not see a viable Libertarian solution to it. Private business is more than happy to keep chugging away with fossil fuels until it's far too late.
For Libertarianism to work, these same private businesses need to do the right thing voluntarily. In Atlas Shrugged, those businessmen and women are doing what is right for their business and it just so happens to be what is right for everyone else, that isn't always the case. All too often, what is right for business goes against what is right for society. Once I realized this, everything unraveled for me.
So anyway, here I am, years later, voting for Democrats because I've got no other option as the GOP became more and more insane since I left.

[–] Sibshops@lemm.ee 42 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Anyone who is a libertarian is unfamiliar with game theory. Some problems happen when individual people act in their own self-interest, but the collective outcome is harmful. Climate change is a prime example.

[–] Ajen@sh.itjust.works 24 points 1 week ago (9 children)

It seems to me like American libertarianism isn't truly libertarianism - its focus is on freedom for capitalists, not freedom for people (corporations are not people). In theory, libertarianism is guided by the principal of non-aggression. Passing laws to fight climate change does not violate the principal of non-aggression, despite what the capitalists claim.

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[–] grue@lemmy.world 24 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

As I became more concerned about climate change, I could not see a viable Libertarian solution to it.

The libertarian solution to climate change would involve privatizing the commons: sell off the atmosphere to some private entity which would then issue licenses for emitting, have standing to sue unlicensed polluters for violating its property rights, etc.

In other words, basically cap & trade but with a for-profit corporation in charge instead of the government, for no good reason.

At least, that'd be the theory. In reality, that's how you get Spaceballs.

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[–] hanrahan@slrpnk.net 76 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

"I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative" - John Stuart Mill

[–] lobut 59 points 1 week ago (2 children)

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith


I think Penn went there with a different mindset than those occupying the space now.

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[–] VitoRobles@lemmy.today 51 points 1 week ago (1 children)

South Park guys too.

Politics so bad, you made the comedians who were mocking both sides in the 2000s apologize.

[–] BigHeadMode@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz 24 points 1 week ago (4 children)

South Park guys too.

Source?

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[–] madcaesar@lemmy.world 43 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Being wrong admitting it and changing your mind with new information is absolutely amazing and a great character trait. Props to him.

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[–] puppinstuff 40 points 1 week ago (3 children)

I got to meet him in Vegas. He was really nice to a nervous nerd. Now I’m even more impressed he has the courage to change his beliefs in public.

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[–] kiwii4k@lemmy.zip 38 points 1 week ago (24 children)

anyone who claims to be "a libertarian" should be forced to watch the libertarian convention which YOU KNOW none of them have ever seen in their lives.

check out the ideas your "party" pushes. real big brain stuff.

there's nothing wrong with freedom, but regulation is necessary. to say otherwise is either ignorance, stupidity, or malice.

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[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 30 points 1 week ago (27 children)

I got turned towards Libertanianism when I lived in Germany for a while and if you ever had you'd know why. Then I lived in Asia where it's the exact opposite and that turned me towards socialism. My point being is that there's definitely a golden mean to freedoms and any absolutist should be immediately ignored because they are objectively wrong.

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[–] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 30 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (7 children)

I found Libertarianism sorta interesting in the 90's, but after school shootings became the norm, and they decided they still support absolute gun rights, I had to nope out. It's only gotten nuttier since.

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[–] rational_lib@lemmy.world 29 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Libertarianism is just a way to soft-sell Totalitarian Plutocracy.

[–] Rooty@lemmy.world 26 points 1 week ago

I was about to say "letting the rich fuck us in the ass without even the courtesy of a reacharound" but your answer is more acceptable in polite society.

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[–] FreakinSteve@lemmy.world 28 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I am a PJ fan and follower, but I am well aware that he has long been a naive idiot operating from a place of priviledge. He is well insulated from the pitfalls of the ideas he espouses, and it took an UNDENIABLE COLLAPSE into straight up Nazism for him to finally grasp it.

Luv ya Penn, but I ain't giving you any fucking medals

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[–] demizerone@lemmy.world 28 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Penn Jilletet pulled me 100 % onto the vaccine train with his ball and shield demonstration with teller on their bull shit show. Until this day, I still haven't seen any demonstration that was more convincing than that on any subject in the amount of time that they used.

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[–] BilboBargains@lemmy.world 26 points 1 week ago

Self awareness is such a precious thing in people but it is a prerequisite for this type of personal growth. It can be difficult but ultimately it is rewarding and fulfilling to realise there are things that you don't like about yourself and set about correcting them.

[–] cubism_pitta@lemmy.world 25 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

Penn Jillette is one of my favorite people to just listen to talk.

He has softened a lot over the years from the loud and in your face personality he was and talks a lot about some of his bad takes or moments in his career that we would play differently today.

He may just be a fucking juggler but sometimes he has cool shit to say :)

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[–] SidTheShuckle@lemmy.blahaj.zone 25 points 1 week ago (3 children)

There used to be a time back when libertarianism was anti-capitalist. Then right wingers stole it and turned it into a circus.

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