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This is an automated archive made by the Lemmit Bot.

The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/zl0bster on 2024-10-23 12:45:29+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/IrnBroski on 2024-10-23 10:56:37+00:00.


Going off what I saw on PiG's video about the new patch, where he mentioned Protoss players perhaps not being loud enough in their suggestions and demands, PiG himself being on the periphery of the Balance Council, it would be fair to assume that this is an accurate depiction of how it works; members lobby for certain changes to be made and then the Balance Council implements changes dependent partially on the lobbying.

If the ultimate goal of the balance council is to create a balanced and fun game at all levels then this methodology is literally at odds with that goal, since individual players arent lobbying for balance, theyre lobbying for imbalance in their race's favour.

Balance council in principle not a bad idea, but if the parties within it are not chasing balance then fundamentally it cannot work.

Removing the shield battery overcharge and giving terran a supply battery overcharge being one of many examples. Fundamentally I cant see much difference in the execution of either of these things, nor in their net effect, yet one is deemd frustrating and one is a fun new ability.

Should be comprised of people whose ultimate priority is Starcraft 2 as a game, not of people whose ultimate priority is winning at Starcraft 2. Pro players arent necessarily compromised, Im sure there are some who can offer valid insight and suggestions, but from the looks of things there are also some who are at least partially motivated by strengthening their race's relative strength, consciously or subconsciously. Pro players insight should be sought but they shouldnt be the deciders. The people making the decisions NEED to hold the idea of a balanced and fun game between all three races at all levels as sacred, and not be afraid to tell "lobbyers" to fuck off.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/JackOffAllTraders on 2024-10-23 10:32:48+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/Rallerbabz on 2024-10-23 08:46:30+00:00.


Why haven't this been talked about? It will increase micro potential for protoss which is a good thing and be a slight nerf to the ghost.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/japinthebox on 2024-10-23 07:02:55+00:00.


Casters still aren't perfect for the role either, unless we can resurrect someone like day9, who has been a progamer and a legendary caster and a game developer. But even if, hypothetically, pro players were a 100% match for the job and casters were a 80% match, I would still take the casters, because the controversy and distrust around having a competitive game designed by non-retired pro players, with their glaring conflict of interest, is an absurdity that's quickly becoming untenable. No one would stand for it in any other sport.

I made a post several patches ago suggesting that maybe the balance council is just too big. Here 's the gist:

  • Appearance of conflict of interest is just as bad as actual conflict of interest, as it erodes trust in the organization and paralyzes them.
  • Voting is broken because they're voting blindly on individual changes as opposed to cohesive suites of changes.
  • They could apply some modern project management tools: a Jira or git repo so that they can put out several versions of the patch and then finally vote on a single version as opposed to individual changes to give to our beloved Blizzard Intern.

I think all that has held true this past year, though maybe the analysis that it's "just too big" was too charitable. At the very least, the dismissal of complaints about conflict of interest as "conspiracy theory" is laughable now.

Why I think casters may be better suited to doing balance:

Casters' interests align better with the community at large

  • The more fun the game is, both to play and to watch, the more their audience grows.
  • Casters may be partial to one race or another, but they aren't financially incentivized to make one race stronger than another.

Progamers are not helped by being involved in perceived conflict of interest

  • Progamers designing patches hurts the reputation of the entire game outside of the echo chamber that the community has made for itself. That means new players being off-put, which in the long run means the game's demise is accelerated. Not having progamers do balance frees progamers from taking flak for their inherent biases. They also have no PR experience or platform through which to address controversy.
  • Collaborations between casters would inherently be far less adversarial than a zero-sum political game between representatives of three competing factions. Having progamers fight over balance outside of the game is a recipe for resentment and probably has already damaged a lot of friendships.

Protoss representation in the council is likely affected by survivorship bias

The toss players on the council are simply not going to be as vocal, as they likely don't have as much at stake anymore if they're still playing professionally despite having virtually no chance of winning tournaments. They almost certainly have other revenue streams, e.g. a popular YouTube channel or a well-paying part-time job or stonks or what not. That may be why we see so much unilateral disarmament. No one should be playing pro Starcraft without a backup plan, obviously, but there is almost certainly not a single toss player for whom the backup plan isn't already their main source of income.

Casters have a breadth-first understanding of the game

  • They may have less in-depth knowledge on the hyperspecifics of each unit, but the most experienced casters will likely have accumulated much more lateral knowledge of the game than most of the best pros.
  • Progamers see the game first and foremost through the lens of their own race and matchups. Having each race perspective represented may, in theory, lead to a balanced win/loss rate, but it won't lead to cohesive changes or to a game that's fun to play or to watch.

Casters watch lower-level/average player games

Most SC2 YouTubers interact with lower-level players and have series where they specifically feature and analyze low-level games. They can make much better judgments on whether something is just balance whining or when something is legitimately unfair at all levels than those who play exclusively at the top.

Casters know what the audience wants

The emotional reactions that casters have at game-changing moments represents what the audience feels better than what a progamer feels.

All the back-and-forth on the Disruptor and Liberator and "stable openings" vs "anti-turtling" is a symptom of not being able to decide if, or when, sudden death makes for a game that's good to play or to watch. Slow down the game and there aren't as many memorable moments; speed it up too much and every loss feels like bullshit and every win like a fluke.

Those are the terms that you see casters discussing balance issues in, whereas progamers are, understandably, discussing in terms of "how many times have I lost to this unit". In terms of game design, the latter has a no more qualified position than the rest of us shouting on reddit -- only that their claims are a little easier to quantify and gather data on, because the rest of us have lopsided skill sets and always end up with a 50% W/L rate.

Just as a lot of unrelated marine animals become identical to crabs, we're seeing more and more units become either marines or flying marines. That may make the game more fair (ignoring that it shuts down any diversity of skill expression), but it's neither memorable to watch nor fun to play. Casters know viscerally a good game when they see one, and can assess balance on those terms.

What do

I don't know how this would work politically; it's not as though we can hold a referendum or anything. But I wouldn't be surprised if, after all the flak that the current council members are receiving, they would be open to taking a break from doing balance. So maybe the move is to ask the casters to step up.

Right now, the casters and online personalities are essentially specialized analysts/play testers for a game designed by pro gamers. It might make sense to flip the script, so that casters design the game and pro gamers take on an advisory role to spot design errors in the minutiae before a PTR is released to a disillusioned fan base.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/Careless-Goat-3130 on 2024-10-23 03:21:28+00:00.


From DnS' video, it seems like there are multiple strong-minded persons in the balance council and the protosses in the balance council were too nice to champion for the changes that protosses rightfully deserve. The second half of the video also revealed the internal dynamics within the balance council. I think making noises every day here during the PTR period might be the only way to get the strong-minded persons in the balance council to back down. And the protosses in the balance council need our support to have a strong voice in the next meeting.

Also, the person in charge of SC2 in ESL routinely checks Reddit so our feedback is super important.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/Sloppy_Donkey on 2024-10-23 02:03:47+00:00.


Protoss gateway units are weaker than other races' units due to their ability to warp in aggressively. This creates a natural defenders advantage for Terran and Zerg, who have stronger units at home. To balance defensibility, Protoss should have more defensive tools than the other races, not less. Zerg has creep and queens, Terran has tanks, planetaries, and sensor towers, while Protoss had the mothership core, later replaced by battery overcharge.

However, even with battery overcharge, Protoss still has the weakest early-game defense in pro play. First, you must anticipate an attack and preemptively build a battery. Second, batteries are easily sniped if units aren’t placed perfectly in front of them. Third, attackers can bypass defenses by dropping in the main or attacking other expansions.

In my view, Protoss defenses were still too weak WITH battery overcharge, especially against strong Terran 2-base timings. We’ve seen Protoss lose games despite dealing heavy damage with blink stalkers, simply because they weren't positioned near a battery when a SCV pull came.

The idea that Protoss has overpowered defensibility that needs to be nerfed makes no sense.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/Searlyyy on 2024-10-23 01:45:49+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/jackfaker on 2024-10-22 23:39:03+00:00.


A compilation of quotes. Please watch the linked videos for the full context before coming to any radical conclusions about isolated quotes. Wanting your own race to perform well is perfectly natural and something everyone should expect.

  • HeroMarine: “If I was part of this balance Council I would just try and make Terran better because then I earn more money I'm a Teran player if Terran is the best race in tournaments I would get more money so I wouldn't be honest I have to be honest with you in that regard” 2:01
  • DNS: "I'll be honest I think I cannot say who it is but the last people we had as far as Pros goes in the balance Council haven't been the most uh you know strong uh like crazy guy you know fighting for us like if you had like a Drogo for example or myself we're going to be like Baboons fighting for the changes" 24:40
  • Pig: “Protoss Pro players are I don't want to say stupid but I would say very bad at arguing for themselves and very bad at understanding the consequences of changes because there's a lot of protos players on the balance Council they're the ones who agree to these changes they're the ones who propose a lot of these changes” 21:29
  • HeroMarine: "Terrans are really the smartest at arguing in the balance console aren't they" 21:00
  • Showtime : “I think we're probably all guilty of that a little bit you know it's like you just sneak in some changes that you know just it might be good for me you know but I mean it for sure happens it for sure happens” 26:55
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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/BaneRiders on 2024-10-22 16:44:03+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/MrIronGolem27 on 2024-10-21 17:07:55+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/GreatWhiteNorthInv on 2024-10-22 04:13:48+00:00.


Is ‘nerf defensive and camping playstyles for all races’ just a red herring to justify the battery overcharge removal? Because that seems to be the only ‘camping playstyle’ nerf (see: spore buffs, spine buffs, BL buffs, sensor tower/turret buffs, Liberator buffs, supply depot buffs).

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/TheRogueTemplar on 2024-10-22 03:23:58+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/Vland0r on 2024-10-22 03:04:09+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/SomeRandomUser1984 on 2024-10-21 22:40:16+00:00.

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Ghosts... (old.reddit.com)
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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/r_constanzo on 2024-10-21 20:48:25+00:00.


So here I was, wondering if they are gonna get triple nerfed, or perhaps quadruple nerfed.

  • Maybe EMP only impacts energy and not shields, or only a small fraction of shields, perhaps also a reduced radius?
  • Obviously some kind of tag, making it weak to vs light, so banelings and other anti-light stuff can counter them a bit.
  • Making them slower, so they aren't the fastest units in the universe.
  • Making them less tanky (so tanky for a caster!!).
  • Having less DPS, particularly against light for some reason...
  • Making snipe cancel cloak.
  • Bigger cargo size so you can't just shoot off with all of them when in danger.

Or any other number of things.

I would have thought at least 3 of those above, and they would still be close to an OP unit.

But alas...

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/bongodongowongo on 2024-10-22 01:01:32+00:00.


Protoss losing overcharge, disrupter getting whacked, Terran getting pretty much no major nerfs to anything they have, while getting buffs to liberator, thor, and early defense, Zerg getting a hydralisk speed buff that lasts about as long as I do in exchange for more expensive queens; Is this not just a Terran buff patch?

They literally state that "The first goal is to nerf defensive and camping playstyles for all races", which I feel most people would hit Terran the most, but between the supply depot ability buff, liberator buff, no nerfs to orbitals, Terrans should have an even easier time playing defensive than before. Especially against Zerg when their economy takes a hit in the form of queens.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/jackfaker on 2024-10-22 00:44:51+00:00.


On paper the shots to kill drops from 11 to 8, but in practice oracle harass is centered on poking in, taking shield damage, and then flying out. The amount of hull damage the oracle takes during each poke dictates how many times it can poke. An oracle has 60 shields and 100 hull hp. The calculated numbers in parenthesis is the amount of hull damage pre and post patch for 1 oracle vs a base with 1 spore and queen. 100 hull damage means the oracle is dead. Two scenarios are listed for if the zerg pulls the drones back over the spore and micros their queen.

  • kill one drone vs afk zerg: 2 hits from spore 3 hits from queen (0 pre/7 post)
  • kill one drone vs focused zerg: 3 hits from spore 4 hits from queen (21 pre/36 post)
  • kill 2 drones vs afk zerg: 4 hits from spore 5 hits from queen (45 pre/65 post)
  • kill 2 drones vs focused zerg: 5 shots from spore 6 from queen (69 pre/94 post)

Conclusion: A one drone kill is no longer a repeatable 'shields only drive by' in most scenarios. You can repeat 1 drone kills 2-3 times before the oracle dies. A two drone kill went from a consistent move with 40-60 hp remaining, to a move where any misstep means the oracle is dying. Additional queens and oracles change the dynamics somewhat, but the general trend is still there. If you are below GM level control, this means you are probably best off avoiding any mineral line with spores.

Swapping the oracle to 100 shields/60 hp would help with the stated goal of making the "Protoss race slightly more efficient with the strongest and smartest execution".

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/SvatyFini on 2024-10-21 23:49:46+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/BboySparrow on 2024-10-21 23:46:29+00:00.


Given the ridiculous nerfs to Protoss. I want to see pro Terrans and Zerg completely run over all Protoss and never let them win. Hit them with the most disgusting all ins, timing attacks, and as many ghosts as it takes.

Maybe if we never see green in a tourney bracket for 7 months, playerbase and viewership decline, then the balance council will see that we need actual buffs and not this shit tier trading 25 minerals for -10% attack speed to immortals.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/Miku-Sarutobi on 2024-10-21 23:12:45+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/SemprAugustus on 2024-10-21 23:05:58+00:00.


This must be the embodiment of the balance council pretending to buff Protoss. From all units, I think the colossus was the least affected from EMP due to having 7 and then 9 range after being upgraded. Most of the time it’s not even being hit by EMP due to said range. The critical units actually being affected so much by EMP are the gateway units.

Swapping 50 shield for HP does literally nothing except for making its armor slightly more useful…

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/Finrod-Knighto on 2024-10-21 22:53:40+00:00.


What the fuck is this patch? How did this unequivocal disaster of a patch get greenlit by an entire council of supposedly equally represented pros? It makes no sense. The balance of the game was okay…ish. Protoss became more stable since last patch, although Zerg needed some help. Terran was clearly leading. So the changes are to nerf Protoss, buff Terran, and do a bit of weird cost shifting for zerg that is probably still a nerf?

I’m not even gonna complain about the disruptor or any of that. Let me just talk about their goal to make camping less viable. Terran is by far the most difficult race to break defensively because they have units that, in a fortified position, require you to take heavy losses in order to dislodge. So what’s the fix?

  1. Decrease PF armour by 1. Nice, not a bad change.
  2. Turrets and sensor towers can be salvaged. Ummm… why? Ok, I guess.
  3. Liberator range is gone! Yay! But wait… a 56% radius increase? 56%? I’ve seen what it looks like in the tester. The new radius is obscene. How does this help at all? Why did the liberator even need a buff to compensate?
  4. You can now just say “no” to anyone who’s about to break your wall without pulling or endangering SCVs to do so. Definitely makes turtling worse amirite?
  5. Sensor towers are now way cheaper, but have a bit less radius. Honestly one of the shittiest buildings in the game design wise. And this doesn’t make it much better. Just spam it more, even with a bit less radius. Also matters less if the map is smaller.

Given the maps are already Terran favoured and have been so for a good while now, Terran has been dominating pro play (yes, Clem is an outlier but so is Serral, Toss doesn’t even have such an outlier), and TvZ probably needed some help to the Zerg side and maybe TvP needed a bit of help for Protoss holding against certain timings, this patch seems to achieve the opposite of all of this. It nerfs turtling for Toss, but Toss defence was already brittle, while possibly making it even better for Terran.

Just… why? I’ve seen a bunch of pros/casters/streamers react to this. Nobody likes it. It’s bad. Please roll back on some, it not many, of these changes before PTR ends.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/Jeremy_SC2 on 2024-10-21 22:49:52+00:00.

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The original was posted on /r/starcraft by /u/No_Technician_4815 on 2024-10-21 21:00:47+00:00.


How did you react to the PTR patch? Are you happy with the suggested changes?

Do you think the patch meets its intended goals:

  • (a) nerf defensive and camping playstyles for all races... to promote more active gameplay across all stages of the game
  • (b) ... to continue reshaping Protoss tools for high-level gameplay
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