this post was submitted on 04 Jun 2025
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[–] [email protected] 85 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (6 children)

Actually, those are not the same. Natural numbers include zero, positive integers do not. She shoud definately use 'big naturals'.

Edit: although you could argue that it doesnt matter as 0 is arguably neither big nor large

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Strictly positive numbers, Z~0~^+^, don't include zero. Positive numbers aka naturals, Z^+^ = N, do.

Edit: this is what I've learned at school, but according to wikipedia the definitions of these vary quite a bit

[–] [email protected] -3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Natural numbers include zero

Only if you're French or a computer scientist or something! No one else counts from zero.

There's nothing natural about zero. The famously organized and inventive Roman Empire did fine without it and it wasn't a popular concept in Europe until the early thirteenth century.

If zero were natural like 1, 2, 3, 4, then all cultures would have counted from zero, but they absolutely did not.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago (1 children)

american education system moment?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I think round the world, children and adults start counting from 1. It's only natural!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I think about this in terms can I have of something (indivisible), and sure enough I can have 0 apples (yeah, yeah, divisible), bruises, grains of sand in my pocket

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago

I think you're trying to explain to me what zero means while I'm trying to explain that it's not where numbers numbers start of from. It's where array offsets start (but making humans make that distinction instead of compilers is on obvious own goal for language designers who weren't intending to make off by one errors more frequent). It's where set theory starts, but it's absolutely not where counting starts, and number starts with counting. It's not a natural number.

[–] [email protected] 67 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Natural numbers only include zero if you define it so in the beginning of your book/paper/whatever. Otherwise it's ambiguous and you should be ashamed of yourself.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago

Fair enough, as a computer scientist I got tought to use the Neumann definition, which includes zero, unless stated differently by the author. But for general mathematics, I guess it's used both ways.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Natural numbers include zero

That is a divisive opinion and not actually a fact

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, it's a matter of convention rather than opinion really, but among US academia the convention is to exclude 0 from the naturals. I think in France they include it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (2 children)

positive interers with addition are not a monoid though, since the identity element of addition is 0

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

They're not a complete algebraically closed field either, but I don't see you advocating for including e - i in the natural numbers!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

yeah, this is kinda weak argument

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago

Not sure if you're conceding the monoid part or not.

We can agree that the natural numbers are a semigroup, I think, which should make us all happy.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago

I hope that explains everything

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yeah I find it easier to just accept the terminology of natural numbers and whole numbers so we have simple names for both.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Big naturals in fact include two zeroes:

(o ) ( o)

Spaces and parens added for clarity

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 days ago

(o Y o) solve for Y

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago

When enclosed in parentheses I believe the correct term is "bolt-ons"

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

(0 ) ( 0)
You can't fool me.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago

Depends on how you draw it.