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Even gun loving conservative scholars agree that the 2nd amendment is a barely coherent grammatically tenuous mess. It’s notoriously unclear.
But for my part, I don’t see how any sane person reads “A well regulated Militia” and concludes that all regulation is prohibited.
Shhhh, the know-nothings don't know this.
Maybe because the country didn't have the money or resources to equip the "well regulated militia" at that time therefore depended on the people to bring their own arms?
Who?
I mean, "the right of the people shall not be infringed."
Also, correspondence at the time sort of supports this.
Literally every serious constitutional scholar thinks it’s ambiguous, just as a matter of English language. Even Scalia, the arch-right Supreme Court justice who penned the majority opinion for Heller, the decision that established the right to own a personal firearm, wrote:
That isn't a constitutional argument, that is a stare decisis argument.
Here is what is said above that, where it is clearly a constitutional argument, because it references the constitution as evidence- not other courts.
That's the justification, not the right. The right is to bear arms. The militia is everyone able-bodied in the US.
Whether you personally think that’s the correct interpretation, if you’re intellectually honest you should at least be able to admit, as many conservative legal scholars themselves admit, that the wording is ambiguous.
I'll buy that when one these "conservative legal scholars" aka moron federalists can produce a single primary source document that uses the phrase bear arms outside of a strictly military context involving uniformed, regimented troops, and instead refers expressly to an individual right of self defense.
Otherwise, it's not ambiguous.
I was curious about this, so I looked into it. According to the Duke center for Firearms Law, one study found that "nearly 95 percent of all uses of “bear arms” conveyed the idiomatic sense relating serving in the military". Another found usage to be 66% military, 21% both military and civilian, and 13% ambiguous. But it sounds like there are a lot of primary sources uses of non-military contexts, especially directly preceding the war for independence.
I'm on your side and I think this is an interesting point, but personally, I'm not convinced this is the strongest argument. We should be able to regulate firearms, even if "bear arms" means "carry arms for private use".
It is far from ambiguous. The first half tells you why the right exists and only part of why. The second half is the right itself, which is the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
The whole question is whether the beginning is a merely “prefatory clause” that has no effect on the application of the second half. The other interpretation is that the beginning is not just idle small talk: People have the right to keep and bear arms insofar as it’s conducive to a well-regulated militia.
Now, you may disagree with that interpretation, but the existence of at least two rival interpretations is the very definition of ambiguity.
It's only unclear if you have an ulterior motive.
Then I guess there are a lot of pro-gun conservatives who have an ulterior motive! The sentence isn’t even grammatical according to the rules of modern English because the controversial comma separates a subject from its predicate.
A metric by which no other amendment is interpreted, otherwise we could insist completely dumb shit like "soldiers must remain homeless for the duration of their service".
The justification is actually to "protect state security." It's right there in the text.
Security of a free state.
Sounds like you need to start executing politicians for the tyranny of "food safety standards" then because the only metric by which America is more "free" than comparable countries is "guns sold to idiots, extremists and domestic terrorists".
Most non violent prisoners of any country to ever exist, as a whole population, and per capita. free lol.
By justification, you mean the spirit of the law right?
By justification I mean the reason for the right. The right being the right to bear arms.
That sounds like well regulated militia is the spirit of the law. The reason for it, the intention, however you want to word it.
It says right in the text the purpose is to protect the security of the state.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,...."
It follows that the state is what may regulate the militia.
The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
Important parts in bold.
Stick your fingers in your ears and yell as loud as you want, its not gonna make the well regulated portion go away.
Not even beginning to mention the founders intentions of the constitution evolving over time, as the lethality, proliferation, and criminal usage of guns has skyrocketed since that amendment was written.
At least some of the founders had the intention of the second amendment allowing the population to overthrow tyrannical rulers.
Yeah i dont think guns are gonna get you very far with that.
Arms, not guns. Also, tell that to the Vietnamese, and Afghanis.
Since we're ignoring morality and effectiveness in favor of semantics and self-centredness, I propose that "arms" meant literal arms, attached to your body.
After all, you can't have a well regulated militia full of double amputees.
Right, civilians with fighter jets and stealth bombers.
We arent talking about law in other countries, the second amendment only pertains to the US. So it would only pertain to you going to war with the US military and police force.
Yes.
I wasn't talking about laws in other countries. I was talking about armed rebellions that beat the US. You know the country with planes, bombers, tanks, and whatnot.
Damn, vietnam overthrew the US?
You've got to be trying to be that obtuse.
no, see you've gone onto overthrowing the US government as a justification for the second amendment, and used the Vietnam War as an example of guns defeating the US. But they didn't overthrow the US government, they never tried to or got anywhere in the vicinity of it. The US suffered embarrassingly high casualties, but Vietnamese got slaughtered, and US military left after massive pushback from US voters, not from an inability to continue
It was not the scenario of a US dictatorship being risen against. If that scenario were ever to happen, it's entirely gonna hinge on the loyalty of the military, whether or not they'd go to war against US citizens. It doesn't matter if they're armed or not.
The point is that an armed populace isn't just rolled over by the largest military in the world. Everybody thinks the "what do you think guns will do against jets" is such a gotcha, but there's lots of evidence even fighting foreign powers it's not that simple. Then you must consider that lots of the US military is pretty big on guns and you have a high likelihood of defection or sabotage of the military. And then even after that any use of the military in our own soil will be extremely unpopular creating even more insurgents.
Something the second amendment has accomplished exactly zero times.
The reason for the law is because the militia was used to defend the US. That changed very quickly when the founders figured out that loosely organized militias were no match to even fight Natives in the Northwest Territory. So the justification is moot now since militias play almost no part in the defense of the US.
I saw a YouTube video or maybe a website article years ago stating that the U.S. can never be conquered, that if an organized foreign military defeated the organized U.S. military they will have a hard time with the millions upon millions of guns in the country.
I mean, if they defeated the military what can a militia do?
I'd say it is more down to the size of the US. There are 330 million people in a country nearly the size of Europe. A country could definitely get a chunk of the US. That would definitely require fully defeating our military which is pretty unlikely. Insurgency can definitely gum things up a bit for foreign invaders but it really takes outside support to actually accomplish much.