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Jesus Christ.
It's relative. If you've seen people around you being abused you become a little desensitized to what 'abuse' is. If abuse is normal every day living for one person, and not for another; the later sees it as abuse and the former sees it as another normal day.
Put yourself in the shoes of a Gaza resident anytime in the last 50+ years and consider yourself lucky that your reality allows you to be able to identify an atrocity when you see one.
Consider the reality these people have experienced for generations before leveling judgement on their opinions.
The entire situation is nauseating. I understand that Israel is a U.S. ally and that sometimes supporting allies means making decisions against better judgement, but... I would rather the U.S. wasn't involved in this at all. It's a bloody mess. Literally.
They have lived in fear under Hamas, but also are not going to side with the people deleting generations of their people from the face of the earth daily.
It's not about 'sides', it's about not believing that Hamas has done things that it is well-recorded and easily found doing.
a yes, bevause they have time and internetbto browser their phone all day
Internet penetration rate in Palestine is upwards of 70%, Jesus Christ
i was talking about gaza
The poll is of people in Gaza and the West Bank.
You aren’t aware that Israel has cut phone and internet access to Gaza? They can’t see these videos. They’re supposed to trust Israel? Give me a break.
Okay, I see the words 'West Bank' mean nothing to you.
They’ve been fucking with their internet, too. Besides, the media is overwhelmingly anti-Palestine and pro-Israel. You’d just tune it out.
Anything to deny the agency of Palestinians, I see.
Oh fuck you, you genocidal twat. Eat a bullet.
Love that I get accused of supporting genocide for pointing out the horror of Palestinians denying Hamas's war crimes, despite the fact that I've spent this entire conflict decrying Israel's ongoing genocide.
Why would anyone believe that given what you’ve just posted and the fact that Hasbara votes are following you at the speed of light. Fuck off forever. Die in a ditch.
TIL I'm Hasbara.
Am I going to get paid for downvoting wishes for murder? That'd be nifty.
"Palestinians are people and not saintly creatures for xenophilic Westerners to paint their own racist 'noble savage' projections over and thus this scientific poll is likely accurate, and thus horrifying"
Yes, what a horrible thing to suggest.
Alternatively, you could look through my post history, since I've been posting anti-Israel opinions since before the October attack, and even more fiercely after the October attack.
what
Israel cut their power dipshit 🙄
Oh, so the poll didn't happen? Glad to see you didn't read the fucking article, which was conducted in Gaza with in person interviews during the 'humanitarian pause'. Business as usual for you, Queermunist, more than happy to read in your own opinions to anything you didn't actually read. Israel didn't cut power to the West Bank, by the way, but I know better at this point to expect anything but dribbling contrarianism from you.
It's this collapse in truth that worries me more than anything. People will simply ignore reality rather than admit that this is more complicated than good side v. bad side.
What's the saying? "In war, truth is the first casualty"?
Sadly not new, nor likely to stop anytime soon. All we can do, as outside observers, is try to champion the truth, and avoid embracing lies, regardless of whether they fit our biases or not.
Only found if you have an internet connection ... which Gazans haven't had regularily since Oct 7.
Gazans haven't had one regularly, but the West Bank has largely maintained service, and has a considerably higher level of support for Hamas.
I don't think 'lack of access to information' is the issue here.
And the West Bank isn't Gaza, is it?
Please stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.
... the West Bank was polled here along with Gaza.
What am I trying to justify?
Thinking that Palestinians in the West Bank should somehow override how Gazans polled, ofc without Gazans having stable access to the internet.
The West Bank Palestinians are pissed at the Zionists for burning down their homes and taking property that isn't theirs to take. Colonialism at its finest right there.
Gazans are dying by the thousands, and since 50% of the Gazan population was children (prior to Oct 7) Israel/IDF practiced child slaughter.
Oh, and here's a tidbit from the poll you obviously missed ... nonetheless, the majority of the Palestinians remains unsupportive of Hamas.
The... the poll that you posted and that I am citing is a poll of both Gazans and West Bank residents. It's not 'overriding' anything.
... what does any of that have to do with me expressing horror at the denial of Hamas's war crimes? Where have I expressed the least support for Israel in this conflict? Where have I denied Israeli colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and attempts at genocide?
Where? Because it's really looking like I'm not being responded to, but an imaginary version of an Israel supporter that has zero relevance to the comments I'm actually making.
And again how in the fuck would they know about the war crimes when they haven't had reliable, steady access to the internet?
You seem to think they should know by osmosis.
Again, the West Bank has access to the internet, and even the internet blackouts in Gaza are intermittent to coincide with Israeli offences and minimize proof of Israeli atrocities, not steady.
If your point is "Gazans don't or shouldn't be included in that 90% denial of war crimes", then, if I accept that for the sake of argument, that's still fucking horrifying that residents of the West Bank overwhelmingly approve or deny the war crimes.
So are West Bank Palestians supposed to vote twice so Gazans are covered?
Like I don't understand why you're harping on about the West Bank? The poll was done on all Palestinians (or at least the ones who had phone access). Why are you focusing on the West Bank then?
I don't understand how you got that from what I said. How is that at all an answer?
Again, in the article you posted it specifically mentions doing in-person interviews in Gaza.
Because you're saying Gaza should be excluded for lack of information?
I said that because you continuously focused on the West Bank.
This you? Because that's what started this whole aside about Gaza needing to be excluded.
Mate, this person is either too stupid or too unwilling to actually give a real response to you. Please save your sanity.
I tend to suspect tunnel-vision when these things happens. Happens to all of us, so I try not to form any long-lasting impressions, unless I see a pattern of it.
Consider the following:
The IDF defends and arms terrorists and commits terrorist acts on a daily basis
All israeli adults serve military duty in the IDF and are reservists. Unlike the Palestinians which are not all part of the Hamas army.
Current adult Israelis voted for Netanyahu which violently opresses them and commits genocide.
Hamas did not shoot any children
Hamas did not rape any women
Hamas did not torture any prisoners
This is in retaliation to the IDF which has been comitting all these war crimes even before 7 Oct.
If you ask Ukranians about their army killing colonists in Crimea they're probably pretty fine with it as well.
Indeed, including terrorists like Hamas.
A country having universal conscription does not make every civilian a fucking target. What the fuck are you, Henry Kissinger (Rest In Piss)?
Fucking doubt.
Oh, all of them?
Again, I reiterate - that Israel is horrible does not justify Hamas being horrible or Palestinians supporting the horrible things that Hamas does, or vice-versa.
I would be deeply disappointed if they did, because having armed forces murdering civilians is fucking horrific.
You're in for a treat when you start reading about the Azov brigade. They've got literal Nazi's.
And I still support Ukraine. But the western media trying to paint them as the cleanest war heroes ever is just a fairy tale. Violent resistance against oppression is never a pretty tale of roses. Especially in Hamas case when more than half the "soldiers" are untrained 19 year olds with guns
If israel treated Palestinians they would have all been appalled by what Hamas does.
The Hamas approval rating is basically a "how evil is israel" poll.
https://youtu.be/mc5iG3DX7ho?si=k_JRYozXtplUgx6T
Zero evidence after two months == it didn't happen 100%.
If there was any evidence the IDF would have been showing it on national TV for three weeks straight.
Jesus Christ, imagine not knowing that the Azov Regiment hasn't been an independent paramilitary for almost a fucking decade now.
Good job gobbling up Russian propaganda, though! Low-information twats who think they know everything are great for unwittingly spreading false information that suits their biases!
And what's the "How are the war crimes?" question? Also a "How evil is Israel?" poll?
Fucking lmao.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/last-defenders-mariupol-what-is-ukraines-azov-regiment-2022-05-17/
AZOV'S ORIGINS
The Azov Regiment began as one of many militias of volunteer fighters who banded together to fight pro-Russian separatists backed by Moscow who carved out two breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine in 2014 after Russia annexed the Crimean peninsula.
Mariupol is the spiritual home of the Azov Regiment which it helped Ukraine recapture from pro-Russian fighters in 2014 and where it had a permanent base until the 2022 invasion.
The militia emerged from Andriy Biletskiy's Patriot of Ukraine organisation that critics say championed white nationalist, anti-immigrant extreme-right ideas.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
Azov is a far-right all-volunteer infantry military unit whose members – estimated at 900 – are ultra-nationalists and accused of harbouring neo-Nazi and white supremacist ideology.
The unit was initially formed as a volunteer group in May 2014 out of the ultra-nationalist Patriot of Ukraine gang, and the neo-Nazi Social National Assembly (SNA) group. Both groups engaged in xenophobic and neo-Nazi ideals and physically assaulted migrants, the Roma community and people opposing their views.
I'm pretty sure that they've got some Nazi shit going on there. Mind showing me where im misinformed?
https://lens.monash.edu/@politics-society/2022/08/19/1384992/much-azov-about-nothing-how-the-ukrainian-neo-nazis-canard-fooled-the-world
Russia will use any excuse it wants to invade. If Azov didn't exist it woud be NATO being too close. Putin just wants more land that's all.
That said you can't just discard the Azov origin which is only 8 years old. That's like saying ISIS origins don't matter. The old gang with a new name is just the old gang.
This article is a great summary. Especially near the middle: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/azov-battalion-neo-nazi/
"
There is a kernel of truth in the allegations that Azov is just a Russian bogeyman. The Kremlin and Ukraine’s neo-Nazis have a symbiotic relationship that reaches to the very heart of this war: Putin needed a pretext to justify his illegal invasion; for that, he turned to Azov. Moscow seized on Azov’s existence to paint all of Ukraine as a cesspool of fascism in need of “denazification.” Azov is the linchpin in Putin’s narrative—without it, his excuse for the war is gone.
In turn, Azov’s defenders have capitalized on Russia’s obsession by implying that anyone who criticizes the group is a Putin apologist. Moscow and Azov use each other to defend the indefensible: For Russia, it’s acceptable to invade a sovereign country to fight neo-Nazis; for the West, it’s appropriate to lionize neo-Nazis because they’re fighting Russia
OUT WITH THE OLD, IN WITH THE OLD:
The problem with insisting that Azov’s neo-Nazism is just a Russian lie is the abundance of evidence to the contrary. Seven years’ worth of Western articles chronicling the group’s nature was too much to ignore. This left Azov’s whitewashers with the unenviable task of cobbling together a come-to-Jesus story in which Azov began as a neo-Nazi paramilitary group but somehow saw the error of its ways before 2022.
The narrative that emerged goes like this: (a) Azov’s deradicalization started after it joined Ukraine’s National Guard—over time, Biletsky and other veterans of the 2014 battalion were filtered out, implying that the new leadership is neo-Nazi free; (b) yes, there are a few leftover neo-Nazis in the National Corps, Azov’s political party; but (c) that doesn’t matter, because the Azov Regiment—later a brigade—has long since separated from the National Corps, which is little more than a fringe political sideshow.
"
It's literally the opposite though - it's a new gang with the old name, which is why useful idiots keep repeating neonazi claims about Azov. Recruits have been assigned to Azov by standard Ukrainian National Guard's standards since it's absorption and the purging of many of its radical members in 2015. In an organization where the term of enlistment is 3 years, and not permanent, unlike, you know, ISIS, or even voluntary political parties, 8 years is a long fucking time.
The article relies on the presumption that Western media reporting on Azov pre-2022 weren't offering surface level analysis that anyone who actually followed the fucking situation knew was outdated by 2017. But believe what you want - useful idiots always do.
A bit further down the article it also goes over the current members of Azov and how they are basically the same as before and they're still saying Nazi shit.
"
Prokopenko, for his part, came out of the White Boys Club, superfans of the Dynamo Kyiv soccer team (far-right groups organized around soccer teams are common across Europe), who celebrated him when he was given an award in October 2022. The group’s Facebook posts have typically included phrases like “100% White” and “88” (code for “Heil Hitler”), praise for Holocaust perpetrators, and Waffen-SS insignia.
During his time in Azov, Prokopenko’s platoon was unofficially called the Borodach Division. Its insignia was the Totenkopf, the skull-and-crossbones design used by the SS, which has become a popular neo-Nazi symbol. (Azov’s version added some fascist whimsy by giving the skull a beard and hipster mustache.)
Azov’s current acting commander—who took over in June 2022, after Prokopenko surrendered to Russian forces—is also an original Azov veteran.> By 2021, the Azov Movement’s position as a premier hub of transnational white supremacy was firmly established. It was tracked by researchers; its fighters were banned from receiving military aid by Congress; and it was kicked off Facebook. The State Department declared its political wing a “nationalist hate group.” Journalists exposed its enlistment of fighters from Sweden to Australia.
"