this post was submitted on 07 Mar 2022
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This is a lie. The so called "referendum" happened after Russia invaded.
Everything was a part of something else in the past; this is irrelevant.
My question is: "when in the past has placating putin actually worked?"
Stop trying to rewrite history. Russian troops were already stationed in Crimea because the legitimate government of Ukraine had a deal with Russia to provide them with bases.
What's relevant is that the people of Crimea, who are Russian did not want to live under a regime that outlawed Russian language. Apparently this is something that you're having trouble wrapping your head around.
My question is: when has the west ever engaged with Russia in good faith. Point me to a single example.
How about a thought experiment. There are protests going on in Moscow, so what if Ukraine sends a "peacekeeping" mission to Moscow and two days after they capture the city there is a referendum for Moscow to become a part of Ukraine. Would you say this was a legitimate referendum, or an obviously hostile takeover?
Crimea used to be a part of the Ottoman empire, and there is someone who speaks turkish over there, so clearly it belongs to turkey....
There are tons of examples actually... how about the ISS? That's been orbiting for over 20 years, what has the US done in bad faith up there?
your turn now, when has placating putin worked?
Wow that's a fascinating thought experiment. Fortunately it has absolutely nothing to do with Crimea. Maybe read up on the subject before talking about it?
By the way, you still haven't answered my question of why Russian people living in Crimea would want to be part of Ukraine that bans the use of Russian language. I'm really curious to see the mental gymnastics you're going to use to explain that.
How is ISS an example of appeasing Putin, do enlighten me. This is the most deranged thing you've said here so far.
It's not, its an example of a good-faith deal between the two nations that has stood the test of time. this is what you asked for remember? "My question is: when has the west ever engaged with Russia in good faith. Point me to a single example."
When I say "placating putin" I mean "when has putin broken the terms of a deal and the other party let it slide and it hasn't resulted in further violations of the terms?"
Please just answer the question and stop deflecting.
You still haven't explained to me why a bunch of Russian people living in Crimea would want to be part of Ukraine that banned the use of Russian language. Please explain this. The reason there are 95% Russian in Crimea is because it was part of Russia until 1970. If you knew anything about Russia or Ukraine you'd know this.
You didn't answer my question then. Stop deflecting and answer it. You're asking me when appeasement has worked, but you can't actually name a single instance of appeasement. Intellectual honesty isn't your strong point I see.
I started this thread by listing two examples of appeasement:
youre the one whos being intellectually dishonest.... you have failed to answer my question and are deflecting...
They wouldn't, but how is that a justification for invasion? answer: its not! its just an excuse for the real reason: wanting to secure the naval base...
You have yet to list a single instance of actual appeasement.
Once again, you've claimed that appeasement hasn't worked while failing provide a single instance of appeasement. I'll let the people reading this thread figure out who's being intellectually dishonest here.
You're saying people don't have the right to self determination? Russian people in Crimea should be oppressed by a hostile government the the west put in that suppresses their culture and language?
How is not going to war with Russia after they invaded Crimea not appeasement?
Maybe you can point to a treaty that says "unless there are people who speak russian there"
You're assuming people who speak Russian want to be ruled by putin. I speak spanish but im not asking spain to invade the US...
Invading crimea stripped the crimeans of their right to self-determination.... Putin is the dictator who is suppressing their culture...
Absolutely hilarious that you think the west was in a position to got to war with Russia.
You're seriously arguing that Russians in Crimea want to be ruled by Ukrainian extremists who literally outlawed Russian language. The fact that you won't even acknowledge how absurd that position is says everything I need to know about you.
Russia had a lot easier of a time Invading Crimea than it has invading Kyiv, so that would seem to suggest that Ukraine let them have it instead of fighting. this is appeasement and placation.
When you say invading you mean keeping the troops that were already there? Your comment would suggest that you have not bothered to actually learn about the subject you're attempting to debate.
Let's just see what the human rights watch has to say https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine
Meanwhile, nobody is justifying any invasion. What you're being told is that Russian people in Crimea chose to rejoin Russia after the west overthrew the government of Ukraine and put a right wing regime in place. The same reason why people of Donbas fought to separate for 8 years. I love how in your mind these people have no agency of their own.
Literal fascists https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
Only to people who have absolutely no clue regarding this subject.
I mean when the soldiers moved out of the naval base and into the towns.
Youre literally justifying the invasion of donbas and the invasion of crimea. And trying to use those justifications to suggest that Ukraine surrender to Russia.... that's what this entire thread is about.
I'm being told that by you, but it's unsupported by evidence.
I don't understand why you call russian soldiers "separatists".
[citation needed] also quick question, why weren't people resisting these supposed soldiers moving into the towns the way they're resisting right now during an actual invasion?
Nice mental gymnastics there.
It is a justification to secede though which is what actually happened.
People of Donbas literally chose to fight for their independence, and they've been fighting the right wing regime for 8 years. Denying their right to self determination exposes you for what you truly are.
That's literally supported by all the available evidence and basic logic. The fact that you continue to deny this says a lot about you.
There is no evidence to support your conspiracy theory I'm afraid.
I already answered this; because, in an attempt to prevent ww3, they decided to retreat and surrender instead of fight. Now they understand that placation has no value.
No one says Russian is "outlawed" in the US, but if you only speak it, and try to get your car registered, you're going to have a hard time. you're one doing mental gymnastics to say that's a justification for war....
I've seen the satellite images of tanks rolling over the border, but you insist they are separatists.
A civilian airliner was shot down by a BUK, but still you insist it was separatists.
If Ukraine sends tanks to support the "separatists" in Moscow, would you say that's not an invasion?
That's not an answer. Why were people of Crimea not resisting the way people are resisting right now, or the way people of Donbas resister Ukrainian regime. When people are invaded they fight back. I'm not aware of a single invasion where people just shrug and say I guess we've been invaded, oh well. The fact that you keep trying to spin this shows just how dishonest you are.
Human rights watch must also be doing mental gymnastics. Real galaxy brain logic here bud.
Oh please do share these images with the rest of the class.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2016/05/12/9248/
LMFAO he links bellingcat as a source. 😂
Disprove it
Disprove it or stfu
If you don't understand that bellingcat is not a reliable source then don't know what else to tell you. Next you're going to ask me to disprove qanon conspiracies. Show me a source that's actually reliable like the UN and we'll talk.
It actually doesn't matter if they're "reliable", what matters is the evidence they've compiled. That article proves that Russian military hardware was in Ukraine in 2014, completely invalidating your pathetic "separatists" theory. You have only ad hominems at your defense, yet you accuse others of spreading misinformation.
Yeah, just like US compiled evidence on Iraq having weapons of mass destruction and then proceeded to massacre a million people there. You're literally spreading imperialist propaganda here. Also, might want to learn what ad hominem actually means. Hint, it's not when somebody calls you out for being an idiot.
They never showed the evidence... here the evidence is in the open for the world to scrutinize. Why don't you scrutinize it instead of talking out your ass
P.S.
Please point out where I'm claiming your argument is wrong based on the quality of your character.
The same way US showed evidence for Iraq having WMD, if you still don't understand why US sources aren't credible you're even dumber than I thought. Talking to idiots is so exhausting.
you're refusing to address the evidence that bellingcat presents because you claim they're unreliable. your attacking the person making the argument, not the argument its self. how is this not obvious?
Please show me this evidence.
I have repeatedly addressed your "evidence" as not being credible. I've explained to you that US has a long history of fabricating evidence and it is not a reliable source. Once you provide me with an independent source making these claims we can have a discussion about that. What you're doing is the equivalent of sending me a breitbart article and asking me to address it.
Show you the evidence that US WMD claims in Iraq were false? You're a next level troll bud.
https://www.vox.com/2016/7/9/12123022/george-w-bush-lies-iraq-war
No, you're claiming the US "showed the evidence" of WMDs and they did not. they said they cant reveal their sources, and we need to just trust them. Now everyone knows not to trust them at their word.
This contrasts to the bellingcat article where they show video evidence, and satellite images to geolocate a russian BUK missile launcher. Which has yet to be disproved in the last 6 years.... these are very different situations...
US literally did that at the UN, this is Colin Powell parading the "evidence"
This is the exact same situation with US making claims against their geopolitical enemies. The fact that you won't acknowledge the conflict of interest or the long history US disinformation shows that you're not a good faith actor.
This is evidence of colin powel holding a yellow vial. we know hes a liar and we know not to trust him. this is nothing like the evidence that belling cat shows...
Show some evidence that the BUK video is fake or STFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvwH0T2WCN0
https://www.google.com/maps/place/48%C2%B001'03.5%22N+37%C2%B059'00.1%22E/@48.0176539,37.9822059,236m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d48.017652!4d37.983353
Not really much of evidence of anything is it. As I recall, your original claim was that Russia invaded Donbas, still waiting for evidence of that or as you so eloquently put it STFU.
I just linked video evidence of a russian BUK in Ukraine... thats an invasion....
yeah same way I'm the king of England
Here's one: the Allies didn't invade Russia after they defeated Hitler. Even though Patton was ready to go. Even though Churchill said we took out the wrong pig. How many Russians would have survived, if they'd just dealt with Stalin then and there?
I love how you manage to expose yourself to be ever more illiterate with every comment you make. First, USSR was one of the allies you dumb ignorant fuck. Second, vast majority of people in Europe supported USSR after the war. Third, the west was in no position to invade USSR that just built up a huge war machine during the war.
All that said, we were talking about Putin. But I guess being the utter idiot that you are, you probably think Putin was in charge of USSR in WW2. You are such an absolute 🤡.
Only commenting to say that the mods/admins might prefer you to mind your language a bit.
fair
I see. So Putin, who longs for the good old days of the USSR, who served in the KGB, is not part of the fabric of history. And the USSR was the worst Ally, btw. They never acted in good faith. Which is all too familiar.
I implore you to learn some actual history.