this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2024

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What's the deal with Isreal vs. Palestine side taking in the West? (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I feel like I've been kind of in the loop for most of the headlines regarding this confrontation. Yet somehow I can't find it within myself to actually care about either side. It seems like both are lead by genocidal parties, hell bent on indoctrinating their populace into hating the other side. Yet at the same time people are able to discern which state is the good one. And some going so far as to believe that one state might even be right over the other.

So far from what I've read and heard, it seems that overall Isreal is just more successful militarily and is encroaching on Palestinian land, and is exhibiting control over some of it. Is that the reason why one might support Palestine? Is it the fact that Isreal has more direct power in the region and thus can easily execute its will a problematic issue for some? From what I can see, both sides have caused massive civilian casualties and neither side wants a two state solution, so neither of those reasons can be a contributing factor to side picking, right? That being said, I can't find a reason for supporting Isreal, so does Palestine win out by default? But what of the people that support Isreal, do they do that purely because they're an American ally? Is any of this side taking have anything to do with the insertion of Jews into the region? What is expected to be done outside of a two state solution or genocide by those taking sides?

I have a lot of questions, and I obviously don't expect all of them to be answered in a single post. So maybe focusing on the elements you're highly informed on would be helpful and then I can kind of piece together the details. Thank you in advance!

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Just in brief, ignoring some history and so on, Gaza has been under Israeli occupation for a while now, controlling essentially everything that goes in and out, including people. Hamas gained power there, and legit, the Israeli government has given resources to Hamas to keep them going, supposedly as an excuse to keep their thumb on the Palestinian population.

A lot of people supported the creation of a Jewish state coming out of WWII and the holocaust, but currently, and especially because of just how hard the Israeli military is going now, it's becoming impossible to not see how much the Israeli government just wants to take control of all the land and wipe out the Palestinian people.

Of course, there's more going on, and some people might disagree with my simplification, but I think this is as good of a simple explanation of at least my understanding trying to follow what's been going on in the region since the early aughts.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Shaun's video on Palestine is the most rational take that I've heard so far.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

Palestine

Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because everything is sports teams also virtue signalling

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago

Nailed it. Nobody ever has ever actually cared about anything but themselves.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (14 children)

If your genuine opinion on a genocide is that the side being subject to the genocide is "as genocidal" as the side perpetrating it, then you're too far gone to be worth convincing.

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[–] MystikIncarnate -2 points 1 year ago

I think people just like to get mad about something.

This is as good of a thing as any to be mad about.

To everyone who takes offense to this: I'm not saying you don't have reasons. I'm sure you do. Please don't share them with me. I'm so far removed from the conflict and I have so many problems of my own that I cannot spare any thought for this war. My only sentiment on it is that I hope that innocent people stop getting killed needlessly. I don't care what side they're on, if they're not intentionally part of the fighting, and they die as a result of the fighting, that's the kind of person I'm talking about. With a special additional note of the same regarding children. Kids can't really comprehend the reason for the fighting and death and therefore are incapable of "taking a side", so they're especially innocent in all of this.

In summary, stop killing people. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hot take: They are all raging cunts.

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[+] [email protected] -10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm sorry, Palestinians are lead by a genocidal party? Hamas does not lead Palestine.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was kind of under the impression that Hamas was a defacto ruling party in Gaza. Given their support (according to some in this thread) that Isreal has given to them previously to maintain Gaza, and their previous political standing in West Bank, as well as all the coverage surrounding the conflict. Perhaps I shouldn't of over generalized by referring to Palestine. Because Gaza seems to be the only Palestinian state actually involved in this war. But then again, I'm also attempting to use the same language to describe the scenario as I see it as many of the media sources and supporters of either side do.

Would you say Hamas isn't attempting to eradicate Israelis when convenient? Obviously they're not as effective as Israel's attempt to eradicate Gazans, but to me it seems like they want Israelis dead even more so than the Israelis want Gazans dead just due to the actions they have taken.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Would you say Hamas isn’t attempting to eradicate Israelis when convenient?

Hamas is a much more pragmatic organization than this. They were like that for a while, but stopped somewhere between 2000 and 2006. They also recently came out and said they'd lay down their arms and become a political party if a two-state solution is enforced. Now whether they mean it aside (I think they should be cautiously believed here) that's not the rhetoric of someone going for an eradication campaign.

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[+] [email protected] -14 points 1 year ago (9 children)

People like taking sides, because it fits into any narrative.

You have Jews vs Muslims, White(not really) vs Brown, Western values vs Middle Eastern.

The progressives love Palestine because they are brown, Muslim and anti West/US and some because anti White.

The Nazis love Palestine because they are anti Jew. (although some Progressives seem pretty antisemitic nowadays too.)

The Conservatives love Israel because they are fighting Muslims and the middle east.

Moderates side more with Israel because the values align more than the theocratic Muslim ones and Israel is a good door into middle eastern affairs. But that requires Americans to think about stuff outside of the US, that's not black and white, so there are not a lot.

The thing is, most of these categories aren't actually that black and white.

Israel has taken in a lot of Arab Jews who fled persecution in their home countries. They are also allied with Arab nations like Saudi Arabia, Jordan and probably more. So the "white" part is not true.

The religions are mostly true, although there are Muslim-majority countries allied with Israel, so its not as clear cut. (Iran is kinda using Palestinians as an attack vector against Israel, and Jordan helped with shooting down Iranian drones)

The west vs middle east part is also a bit weird, since Arab nations are on Israel's side. It's more of a inter-middle-east conflict and the west is supporting Israels side.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

since Arab nations are on Israel’s side

Are they? Pretty sure Ive only seen the opposite but Im not following the topic very closely

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The Nazis love Palestine because they are anti Jew. (although some Progressives seem pretty antisemitic nowadays too.)

Reactions by the far left on this issue seem to support horseshoe theory

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Progressives generally don't hate Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus or any religion or ethnicity in particular. They hate people who think it's okay to harm innocents. Just happens that thinking it's okay to harm innocents currently has a strong overlap with certain groups. Is that so hard to understand?

I'll happily let you pray to whatever god(s) you like. If you want, you can do that right in my back yard. As long as we can agree that "Do not harm others" is kind of important. You know, that thing that is all over the Torah and the Bible. "Thou shalt not kill", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and all that?

No, progressives, leftists, however you want to call them do not want to overthrow western society, abolish conservative thoughts or anything like that. They just want to be left in fucking peace and believe that anyone who doesn't harm others has a right to live their lives. Doesn't matter if they are black, white, brown, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, straight, gay, cis, trans, Star Wars fans or Star Trek fans...

Oh and yes, we're just as annoyed by the few very vocal Stalinist weirdos as you are. They do not represent the majority of left-leaning people.

Edit: some typos and grammar

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I don't like that theory. Democrats are on the spectrum of left and right. But if you are antidemocratic you are a whole different thing. And that way the communists and Nazis are the same. Its not really a horseshoe, just a separate bubble of extremists.

Edit: Democrats as in people who believe in democracy, not the party members.

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