this post was submitted on 13 Feb 2025
315 points (97.6% liked)

Linux

49964 readers
896 users here now

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

Rules

Related Communities

Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
(page 2) 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 day ago (14 children)

Today, it is practically impossible to survive being a significant Linux maintainer or cross-subsystem contributor if you’re not employed to do it by a corporation. An interviewer to the Linux dev that's mentioned in the article: "So what did you do next to try to convince the Linux kernel devs of the need for more focus on end-users?"

I appears as if Linux is a nest that is not built with a consistent set of user-centric principles. Instead, it seems that each part of the nest is built with a specific corporation or project in mind.

Assuming I'm right that Linux is built with project-based thinking and not product-based thinking, I do wonder what a user-centric Linux or another user-centric FLOSS OS would be like, an OS that is so smoothly built that users come to think of it not as an OS for tech-savvy people, but an obvious alternative that you install immediately after getting a computer.

If Linux is indeed built with project-based thinking, then I wonder why that is. The uncharitable explanation is that someone doesn't want Linux to have a MacOS-like smooth and gorgeous experience. If you don't think MacOS is smooth and gorgeous, I'll address that.

I know some people have suffered immensely with Apple products not only because Apple builds devices that can't be repaired, but because of things simply not working. However, there are many people who love Apple. That's the kind of passionate advocacy that I would love to see in Linux, and not just around freedom and value-based judgements. I want Linux to be thought of as the least-friction tool for professional or recreational use. I want people to think of Linux as gorgeous and usable.

Of course, we can apply Hanlon's razor to this situation ("Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by [ignorance or lack of skill or practice]."). Managing a product is difficult. Managing a community is difficult. When the nest's design is not built by a team constantly seeking to care about users, but instead by a bunch of users pecking into the nest until their corner is shaped the way they want, it's not surprising to see a lack of user-centricity.

load more comments (14 replies)
[–] [email protected] 51 points 2 days ago (57 children)

I'm not sure why they feel it's Linus' responsibility to make Rust happen in the kernel. I'm certainly not happy someone is being harassed, but none of this is the fault of the Linux Foundation or the people that have been working on the kernel for decades.

If Rust is going to happen, then it'll happen. Or fork it and make a Rust Linux with blackjack and hookers, and boy, will everyone left behind feel silly that they didn't jump on the bandwagon. But nobody has to make your dreams their focus or even interact with it if they don't want to. And these social media outbursts aren't accomplishing what they think they're accomplishing.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 2 days ago (3 children)

why they feel it’s Linus’ responsibility to make Rust happen in the kernel

who does? are you talking about marcan? because as far as i can see, what they're asking for is for linus to make a stance and actually say whether R4L is a thing they want or not. because linus' attitude so far has been "let's wait and see" which hasn't been all that helpful, as said in the blog post.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Ultimately Linus’ opinion here does not matter in the positive. He can say Rust in kernel is good, but that does not summon the skill and work to make it happen. He can say it’s bad and quash it, at the potential expense of Linux’s future. His position of avoiding an extreme is a pragmatic one. “Let them come if they may, and if they do not it was less a loss for us.”

[–] [email protected] 1 points 22 hours ago

Linus can merge whatever patches he wants to, and the stonewalling subsystem maintainers would have to deal with it--like he did with the eBPF scheduler. R4L maintainers already wrote the patches, they literally just needed to be merged.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Thing is, there is already Rust in Linux, and Torvalds wants more, faster. He's being sabotaged by C purists, who at this point should stop acting unprofessionally, or at the very least make their own "only C" fork if they disagree with his leadership so much.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I’m not placing blame on the Linux Foundation, Linus, or anyone else for that matter. However, I believe that if Linus has publicly endorsed the use of Rust in the kernel, that decision is already largely set in motion. On the other hand, if the community collectively opposes the integration of Rust with C and no action is taken to address these problems, and everyone say no, then there is little to no reason to make the initial statement.

Much of the work being produced by Rust developers seems to struggle, often because it's not made in C and because of maintainers saying "No I don't want any rust code near my C code".

I recognize that there are various technical factors influencing this decision, but ultimately it was the creator's choice to support it.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Isn't it reasonable for a maintainer to say "no rust here" when they don't know rust, don't want to learn it, and have decades of experience in C, and are maintaining that part of the system

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 day ago

It's also his legitimate choice to wait. He can't see the best way forward and is deciding to wait on his decission or let the community decide instead of him. As much as we like to think of him as autocrat in some way, he respects people that work on kernel and he respects their time. The smartest move is often to wait on a decision. And even if it's not a smartest move in this case, it can still be better than making a wrong decission that will demoralize the community even more.

load more comments (54 replies)
[–] [email protected] 66 points 2 days ago (6 children)

That's really too bad... They are a super talented developer and they were doing something really cool, and making great progress too.

But if they were doing Asahi Linux for fun as a hobby, and if it isn't fun anymore for a variety of reasons, then you really can't blame them.

I'm not sure if there is a "right" or "wrong" here, as this is just one person's side of the story that acknowledges, but mostly glosses over, the possibility that they made mistakes or behaved badly at times too.

But I can absolutely understand the basic concept of burning out because you don't think your hard work is being appreciated, because people are making hard things even harder for you, or because users on the internet let their excitement about a thing push them too far into being entitled.

Hopefully Marcan can find some time to relax and do fun and rewarding things with their time.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 days ago

Speaking of his Wii homebrew work,

Most people using our software just wanted to play pirated games (something we did not support, condone, or directly enable)

He wasn't on whatever team that released a tool that asked "Oh hey just asking do you intend to run pirated games? Just need to know for setup" then soft bricking the console if you say yes?

load more comments
view more: ‹ prev next ›