Trans Woman Arrested, Sent to Men’s Jail For Entering Florida Capitol Bathroom : transgender

[–] [email protected] 66 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

Relevant facts:

she self identifies as a "moderate conservative", also identifying as a "centrist" who cares about "family values"
she is a devout Catholic
she lives in Illinois and traveled to Florida just to do this
before going to Florida, she sent letters to lawmakers stating her intention to break the law, including when and where she would and a photo of herself (police were thus posted at the location and time she indicated, hence why she was arrested)
she explicitly identifies as not a "political activist"
she is breaking the law because she thinks it is wrong (she is engaging in civil disobedience), though she did not expect to actually be arrested
she didn't consult any legal or advocacy groups before doing this
she was arrested upon going into the restroom and washing her hands, after cops posted at the bathroom told her not to; she was held in the men's ward of the Leon County Detention Facility overnight, and she faces 60 days of incarceration if convicted
she is back in Illinois but will have to fly back to Florida for hearings
she didn't expect to be arrested and regrets doing it

source: Tampa Bay Times (archive.ph link)

[–] [email protected] 20 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I.... Am I the only one that is shocked by the fact that there are cops posted at BATHROOM??????? The fuck??? (Also wtf do they have a law that say you can do prison if you step in the wrong bathroom????)

[–] [email protected] 20 points 6 days ago (3 children)

The cops were only there because she sent the letter telling them when and where she would be doing this. Also a 60 day sentence would not be served in prison, but the county jail (they are different).

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago (2 children)

If someone sent me a letter saying they were going to use a bathroom I would ignore it, not send cops there. Your sentence is phrased like they simply had to be there which is just validating, if inadvertently, the idea that going to the fucking washroom should be a crime. I do agree that prison vs jail is probably something we should be more careful with but the fact remains that she never should encountered any resistance at all, period.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

If someone sent me a letter saying they were going to use a bathroom I would ignore it

This is rational, but the fascist pigs who passed and enforce that law are not.

Your sentence is phrased like they simply had to be there

That's a very bizarre reading of my comment, which was not phrased in that way whatsoever. The commenter I was responding to seemed to think the cops were posted there routinely for the purposes of enforcing that law. I was correcting the misunderstanding by pointing out they were only there because she sent a letter beforehand. Obviously they didn't "have" to be there, in the sense that they are individuals with free will who could have woken up that day and decided to stop being fascist pigs. But they didn't, and expecting them to is going to lead to disappointment every time because if "don't be a fascist pig" were in the cards for them, they wouldn't be cops in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

She explicitly said in the letter that she was going to break the law. Here is one of the letters she wrote:

I understand that if you're receiving this letter, you're part of the Florida Bicameral Legislature, which means you're probably one of the people who wrote this law or voted for it. I know that you know in your heart that this law is wrong and unjust. I know that you know in your heart that it's wrong to arrest me and jail me for sixty days for simply using the bathroom. I know that you know in your heart that transgender people are human too, and that you can't arrest us away. I know that you know in your heart that transgender people are no different from you or anybody else. I know that you know in your heart that the same people that go to church with you, eat in the same restaurants, go to the same schools, root for the same sports teams, watch the same movies and pray to the same God as you cannot be all bad. I know that you know that I have dignity. That's why I know that you won't arrest me.

She made an emotional appeal to the Florida legislature and hoped they wouldn't arrest her in an act of civil disobedience. Instead, they sent police to dissuade her from violating the law, and then had her arrested when she broke the law anyway.

If someone sent me a letter saying they were going to use a bathroom I would ignore it, not send cops there.

I guess you're not a Florida legislator, huh? She didn't send the letter to the reasonable, average person - she sent them to the people who voted in the law that bans trans people from using public restrooms. What is relevant here is what the people who did receive the letter would likely do in response?

Your sentence is phrased like they simply had to be there which is just validating, if inadvertently, the idea that going to the fucking washroom should be a crime

void_turtle's phrasing is accurate, the cops were only posted at that particular bathroom at that particular time because she gave advanced warning she was going to be there, they absolutely weren't going to let a trans woman flagrantly violate the law they passed (even if that means enforcing a ridiculous and immoral law - the fact they passed the law is a reason to think they wouldn't mind enforcing that law too).

void_turtle isn't implying this was the right thing for the Florida lawmakers to do, only that it is a reasonable outcome to expect from sending the letter.

she never should encountered any resistance at all, period.

She looks cis passing to me and probably wouldn't have encountered resistance if she hadn't intentionally notified the lawmakers of her intent to violate their law at a particular time and place. That's what got her arrested.

That said, many trans people don't have the passing privilege she has, and the law most impacts those people who anyone would spot as visibly trans, and thus would be at most risk of arrest. Marcy Rheintgen is engaging in civil disobedience she likely wouldn't otherwise be subject to, and it would make a better story of self sacrifice if she wasn't an ignorant reactionary who admitted she didn't actually think she would be arrested and now regrets doing it, lol.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You wtote so much and yet somehow deftly missed the entire point by a good half-mile so all I have for you is:

“Ok.”

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

haha, that sounds like me - sorry for the essay 🙈

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It’s ok to get lost in the weeds.

The point is that the VoidTurtle had no reason to say what they did, nor in the way they said it, except to try to remind us that “actually she broke the law so gotcha!”. This is true, but the law here is complete, hateful nonsense designed to validate the mistreatment and erasure of trans people and does not help protect anyone from anything. The state sent cops there to arrest her for washing her hands. It doesn’t help that cops have a history of not taking actual crimes seriously enough so that doesn’t help their case knowing that they seemed to have had no issue finding people to go do this job.

The underlying lesson is that if someone does something awful because some fucked up law permits them to do it then they still did that terrible thing and should be called out for it anyway. It was once perfectly legal to treat black people like less than full human beings but enough people said “no” while it was legal to get that changed. Imagine if someone was talking about how they helped lynch an escaped slave and when you challenged them on that VoidTurtle walked in like “actually that’s legal maybe the slave shouldn’t have tried to escape if they didn’t want to get killed.”

Legality does not equal morality, it simply often coincides with it and many times does not.

I hope that clears things up.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

oh, no - I understood your position then

I think you're wrong that void_turtle, whose account has black flag waving and who makes comments defending leftist activists and is clearly anti-police, is taking the position that the law is morality and that she deserves to be arrested ... there are context clues, and I'm not sure why you don't see them but your response to void_turtle seems unreasonable to me.

Rereading void_turtle's comment:

The cops were only there because she sent the letter telling them when and where she would be doing this. Also a 60 day sentence would not be served in prison, but the county jail (they are different).

This response does not read to me as a defense of her arrest, but an explanation as to why she was even arrested in the first place. It's a clarification, not a condemnation of her or a "gotcha" to justify her arrest. I don't see how you could read it that way, to be honest.

Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, we're all on the same page here, we all agree: fuck this law, fuck the cops, and this arrest is immoral.

Nobody here is arguing the law is moral or that breaking the law morally justifies arrest.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Because we know why she was arrested, it’s in the article. And frankly, even though she failed to understand it herself, I understand why making one’s civil disobedience known can be important. The question was about why cops were posted outside the bathroom and phrased with clear exasperation at how we’ve gotten to the point where we take the threat of handwashing so seriously.

What does VoidTurtle’s comment actually add to the conversation? I know what they said but I’d like to know why they felt the need to say it, and why they said it so coldly.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

This was your comment:

I… Am I the only one that is shocked by the fact that there are cops posted at BATHROOM??? The fuck??? (Also wtf do they have a law that say you can do prison if you step in the wrong bathroom???)

This was void_turtle's response:

The cops were only there because she sent the letter telling them when and where she would be doing this. Also a 60 day sentence would not be served in prison, but the county jail (they are different).

Here's how I interpret this:

you are shocked cops would be posted at the bathroom
this indicates you don't understand why cops would be posted at the bathroom
void_turtle clarifies the reason: because she told them when and where she would be so they could arrest you

I do not experience void_turtle's comment as cold or as inappropriate, they aren't responding to your moral outrage, they are clarifying a fact and potential misunderstanding.

I also thought your original comment was confusion about why cops were posted, not just moral outrage that cops were posted in response to the letter.

void_turtle and I both seem to have interpreted your comment as being ignorant to the relevant facts, that she told anti-trans lawmakers where she was going to violate one of their anti-trans laws, which explains why the cops were posted there.

The response was nothing more than clarification, I really don't interpret their comment as coldly dismissing your moral outrage, truly as only clarifying something they thought you didn't know. We thought you hadn't read the article, we thought your response indicated you didn't know why the cops were posted to arrest her. (The article made it clear: the cops were posted because the anti-trans lawmakers asked them to arrest her if she broke the law she declared she would violate.)

Your moral outrage is justified (I'm with you - it's insane), but I can't tell if you are genuinely confused as to why anti-trans lawmakers would do something as immoral as assign cops to guard a bathroom and enforce a bathroom bill they passed?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

The first comment was not mine.

VoidTurtle could have, at any time in their response, said “I know it’s crazy but…” though even still I think they would be completely missing that the original commentor is not confused about how it happened and more confused about how fucked up the many people are who actually deemed the situation dangerous enough send not even just one cop, but several.

There are also very often laws that are not enforced too strongly but exist to give people the option to enforce them, and how drastically they are enforced may change. Cops will almost never pull someone over for going a couple mph over the speed limit, for example, and I think we’d all be pretty fucking shocked if we got a ticket for 41mph in a 40mph zone, right?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Yes, it seems like void_turtle missed that you were not confused about why she was arrested and that you were only outraged that she actually was. (To be fair, I did too.)

The non-enforcement of laws is irrelevant here, why is it so hard for you to understand that anti-trans lawmakers want to put trans people in jail? These people literally wrote, voted for, and passed the bill they asked the cops to enforce. It's a moral failure all the way down - but the fact that cops don't enforce the law evenly or strictly feels really irrelevant right now.

It's like being outraged that cops would arrest Black Lives Matter protestors because they don't arrest motorists who kill bicyclists. Like, fucking duh. Do you realize the world you live in?

The lawmakers are anti-trans, they do not believe trans people should exist, they actively wish to "eradicate transgenderism from public life" - the goal is literally fucking genocide and you're over here arguing with a trans women about how unbelievable it is that those same genocidal assholes who wrote the bills actually did something to make sure their laws were enforced (in a context where they were warned in advance about when and where their laws were about to be broken)?

This is reality, anti-trans lawmakers are trying to erase trans people from public life, and they're doing it. Trans children are being forced to detransition, trans people in prisons are being forced to de-transition and undergo debunked and unethical conversion therapies, drag bans are being used to keep trans people from appearing at public events, and so on.

EDIT: lol, I missed that the first comment wasn't yours (I'm sorry, ugh) ... all the stranger it makes this whole interaction

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago

60 days in a Florida county jail is probably the worse fate.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago

It's still fucking absurd.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It is Florida. Nothing shocks me coming from there.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago

Police were there because she sent letters in advance telling them when and where she would use the restroom in violation of the law. Otherwise not only would police not have been guarding that particular bathroom, but she would have likely passed as a cis woman and used the restroom without incident.

[–] Revan343 10 points 6 days ago

Idiot: ✓

Identifies as moderate conservative, but is mostly apolitical: ✓

What a surprise.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

Peacefully disobeying the law is not a good idea under fascism. This was a brave, albeit really stupid, thing to do. I hope this woman makes it out okay.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 6 days ago (2 children)

as stupid as a trans woman entering the men's bathroom and being ridiculed/assaulted? there's really no winning for trans people

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago

With RepubliKKKans, the cruelty is the point. The governor of Texas signed a bill a couple years ago that made it so that, iirc, construction workers were no longer required by law to be given water breaks. There are 60 days in Dallas, TX per year with an average high temperature at least 97 degrees Fahrenheit. I remember one stretch about 20 years ago in Austin where the temperature was 100+ for 30 days in a row.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

She didn't do anything wrong; but regardless, if you're going to scale the wall to go into the lion's den at the zoo definitely don't announce it to them via megaphone first.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago

No kidding. Prison is not a good place to be trans at the best of times. She seems to be aware of this but... I dunno. As a protest goes this seems ill advised. She might be playing Joan of Arc here but I just hope she doesn't regret this later.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I mean she thought of politics as something philosophical that doesn't actually effect people so I'm not sure how someone this sheltered exists while also being trans. But it's fascinating in a horrifyingly stupid way. It explains why she really thought they wouldn't actually arrest her.

She's actually not mentally prepared to do prison time so I hope they figure something out.

Florida ignoring her legal name change is goofy though.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Probably why some are non voters to, they don't think actually affects them.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It's beyond stupid though, laws actually exist and we live in functioning society because of them (lol). Laws are created through politics. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, does she think if she speeds she'll never get a ticket? That it's just in movies?

Very strange, scary honestly

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Some people really do just don't think about it much. There's also plenty examples of stuff like "we can't legalize weed, it's illegal drugs!" and then completely missing the contradiction

I don't really know how they think the world works, like they think that laws are just part of the natural order or things? And so politics barely mean anything? Or is just symbolic? I dunno

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Some people do think that the society we exist in is just part of the natural order and that it's vain to try to change it or even care about it. I had an ex that was like that: whenever I tried talking about politics with her she would just go "What's the point of talking about it, we can't change anything anyway"

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It's really weird honestly, considering that, you know, literally all of society is built up by humans

Have they just never read any history at all?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I think some people feel like history is in the past, and if they weren't there to see it? Well it's no different than a fairy tale.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago

I guess people heard people say that we have "reached the end of history", and accepted it without question

Seems like history is very much still alive and well

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago

Friendly reminder that if you're trans and planning on leaving the states (and you really should be), you'll need to leave by land or an airport that doesn't have body scanners. As you will be detained if what they see in the scanner doesn't match their expectations based on your passport.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago

You guys are way too precious about your public toilets.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Sometimes the arrest is the protest.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago

Don't get yourself vcoded out of protest please

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

They're doing state mandated conversion therapies in the prisons.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

Just take a shit in the hall next time. They pardon people for that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago

There would be no problems like this if we had gender-neutral bathrooms.

Transgender