Cowbee

joined 2 years ago
[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 hours ago

I don't really blame many of the Marxists here for being short on patience, much of the arguments we have are the same exact arguments we've had day after day. I do think patience tends to be more useful in dialogue, but I also can't expect everyone else to uphold that.

Take care!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (2 children)

First off, I apologize if I came off as hostile. That's not really my intent, I try to correct misconceptions and misunderstandings surrounding Marxism and Marxism-Leninism when I see them.

Overall, the Marxist view on markets is that at lower stages of development, they can serve a progressive role, but at higher stages they impede progress and even turn into imperialism, as we see in Europe and the US, ie the global north. Capitalism is best described as a system by which private property is the principle aspect of an economy, ie the large firms and key industries are privately owned. In such a condition, this means private property also has control of the state, so markets will largely play a reactionary role in exploiting and oppressing the masses. Socialism can make use of limited markets while retaining state control of the large firms and key industries to get the good growth of markets in lower development while taking advantage of the numerous benefits of central planning at higher stages in development.

Capitalism itself leads to inequality and fascism. There isn't a way to escape this, there is no such thing as a static capitalism. It either forces imperialism outwardly, is stuck at simple reproduction in imperialized countries (rather than reproduction on an expanded scale), or turns to fascism, if it doesn't have a socialist revolution.

As for the PRC, they are firmly Marxist-Leninist, specifically Marxism-Leninism-Xi Jinping Thought, which is largely a synthesis of ML-Mao Zedong Thought and Deng Xiaoping Theory, itself an addendum to MZT. Their system is firmly socialist, their use of markets and private property is in a controlled manner that can only be controlled as such in a primarily planned economy. Without understanding this, you won't be able to see why the PRC is on the rise and is so stable, while Social Democracies in Europe are on the decline.

You're welcome for the links. If you want a standard reading list for Marxism-Leninism, I made an introductory one you can check out if you ever get the interest. You'll be able to better understand the USSR, it's strengths and weaknesses, and why the PRC is currently succeeding.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 13 hours ago

It's all about rate of change, not absolute values. Nothing is static, and the tides move in favor of radicalization as the conditions for radicalization expand.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

On the contrary, the decay in material conditions has led to increasing radicalization. One only need to look at the unified support for Luigi Mangione to see that people are increasingly jaded with the system.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 14 hours ago

No problem, enjoy! Feel free to ask questions or make suggestions!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 14 hours ago

No, this is a very bad frame of analysis.

  1. Settler-colonialism is absolutely still a massive issue. It isn't a thing of the past.

  2. The patriarchial structure of society still oppresses men and women everywhere.

You're erasing very real issues, strawmanning what people believe, and plugging your ears. This is the "I don't see color" problem, that's you ignoring systemic problems, not getting rid of them!

What your tactic would result in is a large portion of women, ethnic minorities, and queer folk being further alienated just to potentially win more white men, but that wouldn't happen either. Focus on liberation along all lines, economic, social, and more, and allow these coalitions to strengthen our position. You're furthering division by shutting down the voices of oppressed peoples, strawmanning what they say, just because its uncomfortable for you to hear.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

I have an introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list if you want a more structured course, and you find State and Revolution to be too advanced for starting out! But S&R is a banger text, it's included in the course.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 14 hours ago (4 children)

Not who you asked, but I'll respond too, as another Marxist-Leninist.

  1. Absolutely. The underlying analysis of capitalism and its evolution into imperialism rings true today, just at a more heightened stage. Central planning continues to be more effective at higher stages of development than market forces, and capitalism continues to centralize and pave the way for this. The working class's strongest weapon, its mass, is still best utilized in unity of direction and action.

  2. The world wars were caused by capitalist imperialism, not socialism. Plus, one thing that's nice, is that the US has hollowed out its own production, it can't support a sustained war. It's a paper tiger, and a unified working class is a force so strong the state can't simply win by bombing us.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 15 hours ago

It was generally a pro-western coup. You can't really disentangle the EU from NATO from the US along clean lines, they have lots of overlap. NATO, in 2021, affirmed its plans of further integrating Ukraine.

Really, Euromaidan was sparked by Yanukovych pivoting away from the more predatory IMF loan offer to the less predatory Russian loan offer. Indeed, the loan from Russia had better terms, the IMF loan would have forced Ukraine to slash their healthcare and education budgets, and stop subsidies in natural gas (which kept energy prices low) as part of the loan terms.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 18 hours ago (4 children)

I'm not trying to be mean here, but I really don't care about anecdotes. When I say that the Soviet economy was strong and maintained some of the highest rates of growth in the world all while having a lower disparity, it's because I've done the reading and research to see that. A quick article like *Do Publicly Owned, Planned Economies Work? by Stephen Gowans, or a full book like Is the Red Flag Flying? The Political Economy of the Soviet Union by Albert Syzmanski or Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti all do a far better job than anecdotes at seeing what conditions were actually like systemically.

From the moment in 1928 that the Soviet economy became publicly owned and planned, to the point in 1989 that the economy was pushed in a free market direction, Soviet GDP per capita growth exceeded that of all other countries but Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. GDP per person grew by a factor of 5.2, compared to 4.0 for Western Europe and 3.3 for the Western European offshoots (the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) (Allen, 2003). In other words, over the period in which its publicly owned, planned economy was in place, the USSR‘s record in raising incomes was better than that of the major industrialized capitalist countries. The Soviet Union’s robust growth over this period is all the more impressive considering that the period includes the war years when a major assault by Nazi Germany left a trail of utter destruction in its wake. The German invaders destroyed over 1,500 cities and towns, along with 70,000 villages, 31,000 factories, and nearly 100 million head of livestock (Leffler, 1994). Growth was highest to 1970, at which point expansion of the Soviet economy began to slow. However, even during this so-called (and misnamed) post-1970 period of stagnation, GDP per capita grew 27 percent (Allen, 2003).

I'm also not saying the Soviet Union was perfect. There indeed were issues with black markets, misplanning, etc, but they didn't outweigh the dramatic benefits the system provided. It's no wonder that the majority of people who lived through the Soviet system wish it had remained. With the reintroduction of capitalism in the 90s, an estimated 7 million people died due to a loss in safety nets and a dramatic increase in poverty around the world.

The achievements of the USSR and its failings need to be contextualized in the fact that, unlike western countries, the USSR was a developing country. With it, however, came around the developed world a mass expansion in safety nets in order to provide what the USSR was already providing for its people. With the fall of the USSR, wealth disparity around the world began to climb more rapidly than ever:

As for the PRC, "Socialist Market Economy" is the official term for its economy. The fact that you admit to never hearing that term before means you haven't actually done much research into it. State Capitalism refers to countries where private ownership is principle, ie governs the large firms and key industries, but with strong state influence, like Bismark's Germany, the Republic of Korea, and Singapore. In the PRC, it's public property that governs the large firms and key industries.

The system overall is called Socialism With Chinese Characteristics, or SWCC. Here's a study guide for it, in more depth. The key takeaway is that private property and markets existed in Mao's era, in the USSR, etc, the modern PRC isn't very different from those in terms of where the balance of power lies. Trying to plan all of the small, underdeveloped industry can often slow growth, while planning and controlling the large firms and key industries is not only more effective economically, also retains proletarian control over the economy. As the small and medium firms are developed through market forces, they can be better intrgrated into central planning and have their property gradually sublimated. It's Marxism-Leninism applied to the conditions of modern China, also called Marxism-Leninism-Xi Jinping Thought. So yes, China is absolutely socialist.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

No worries, and have fun with it! Feel free to ask any questions or give feedback for it if you want to. It's also an intro list, there's a ton you can read beyond it once you finish, but you should be able to figure out what you want to read when you finish it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 19 hours ago

I agree, you rejecting the consensus of both western and non-western sources is pretty sad, all while you complain about Marxists.

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On May 5th, 1818, Karl Marx, hero of the international proletatiat, was born. His revolution of Socialist theory reverberates throughout the world carries on to this day, in increasing magnitude. Every passing day, he is vindicated. His analysis of Capitalism, development of the theory of Scientific Socialism, and advancements on dialectics to become Dialectical Materialism, have all played a key role in the past century, and have remained ever-more relevant throughout.

He didn't always rock his famous beard, when he was younger he was clean shaven!

Some significant works:

Economic & Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844

The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte

The Civil War in France

Wage Labor & Capital

Wages, Price, and Profit

Critique of the Gotha Programme

Manifesto of the Communist Party (along with Engels)

The Poverty of Philosophy

And, of course, Capital Vol I-III

Interested in Marxism-Leninism, but don't know where to start? Check out my "Read Theory, Darn it!" introductory reading list!

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On April 22nd, 1870, Vladimir Illyich Ulyanov "Lenin," hero of the Russian Revolution, and architect of the world's first Socialist state, was born. His contributions to the Marxist canon and to the revolutionary theory and practice of the proletariat throughout the world carries on to this day, in increasing magnitude. Every passing day, he is vindicated. His analysis of imperialism, the right of nations to self-determination, and revolutionary strategy have played a key role in the past century, and have remained ever-more relevant throughout.

He also loved cats!

Some significant works:

What is to be Done?

Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism

The State and Revolution

"Left-Wing" Communism

The Right of Nations to Self-Determination

Materialism and Empirio-Criticism

The Tax in Kind

Interested in Marxism-Leninism, but don't know where to start? Check out my "Read Theory, Darn it!" introductory reading list!

 

Among many who have not engaged with Marxist theory, there can be confusion regarding the determination of systems as Socialist, Capitalist, and so forth. Are markets Capitalism? Is public ownership Socialism? Is a worker cooperative in a Capitalist country a fragment of Socialism? These questions are answered by studying Dialectical and Historical Materialism, and I will attempt to help clarify those questions here.

The idea that Socialism means only and exclusively full ownership in public hands is wrong, and anti-Marxist. To take such a stance means either Capitalism and Feudalism have never existed either, the sort of “one-drop” rule, or that Socialism itself is a unique Mode of Production that needs to be judged based on “purity” while the rest do not, a conception that has roots in idealism rather than Materialism.

Modes of Production should be defined in a manner that is consistent. If we hold this definition for Socialism, then either it means a portion of the economy can be Socialist, ie USPS, or a worker cooperative, or it means an economy is only Socialist if all property has been collectivized. Neither actually allows us to usefully analyze the trajectory of a country and who actually has the power within it.

For the former, this definition fails to take into account the context to which portions of the economy play in the broader scope, and therefore which class holds the power in society. A worker cooperative in the US, ultimately, must deal with Capitalist elements of the economy. Whether it be from the raw materials they use being from non-cooperatives, to the distributors they deal with, to the banks where they gain the seed Capital, they exist as a cog in a broader system dominated by Capitalists in the US. Same with USPS, which exists in a country where heavy industry and resources are privatized, it serves as a way to subsidize transport for Capitalists. The overall power in a system must be judged.

For the latter, this “one drop” rule, if equally applied, means Feudalism and Capitalism have never existed either. There is no reason Socialism should be judged any differently from Capitalism or Feudalism. To do so is to add confusion, and the origin of such a desire is from idealists who believe Socialism to be a grand, almost mystical achievement of perfection. The truth is more mundane, and yet because it's more mundane, it's real, and achievable, as it already has been in many countries.

What Socialism ultimately is is a system where the Working Class is in control, and public ownership is the principle aspect of society. If a rubber ball factory is privately owned but the rubber factory is public, the public sector holds more power over the economy. In the Nordics, heavy industry is privatized for the most part, and social safety nets are funded through loans and ownership of industry in the Global South, similar to being a landlord in country form. In the PRC, heavy industry and large industry is squarely in the hands of the public, which is why Capitalists are subservient to the State, rather than the other way around.

As for the purpose of Socialism, it is improving the lives of the working class in material and measurable ways. Public ownership is a tool, one especially effective at higher degrees of development. Markets and private ownership are a tool, one that can be utilized more effectively at lower stages in development. Like fire, private ownership presents real danger in giving Capitalists more power, but also like fire this does not mean we cannot harness it and should avoid it entirely, provided the proper precautions are taken.

Moreover, markets are destined to centralize. Markets erase their own foundations. The reason public ownership is a goal for Marxists is because of this centralizing factor, as industry gets more complex public ownership increasingly becomes more efficient and effective. Just because you can publicly own something doesn’t mean the act of ownership improves metrics like life expectancy and literacy, public ownership isn’t some holy experience that gives workers magic powers. Public ownership and Private ownership are tools that play a role in society, and we believe Public Ownership is undeniably the way to go at higher phases in development because it becomes necessary, not because it has mystical properties.

Ultimately, it boils down to mindsets of dogmatism or pragmatism. Concepts like “true Socialism” treat Marx as a religious prophet, while going against Marx’s analysis! This is why studying Historical and Dialectical Materialism is important, as it explains the why of Marxism and Socialism in a manner that can be used for real development of the Working Class and real liberation.

Marxism isn't useful because Marx was prophetic, but because he synthesized the ideas built up by his predecessors and armed the working class with valuable tools for understanding their enemy and the methods with which to overcome said enemy.

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For good fun, here are a few of Lenin's most important contributions to Marxist theory, I highly recommend all of them (but Imperialism especially).

Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism (must read for any Leftist wanting to understand modern Capitalism, Anarchists included!)

The State and Revolution

"Left-Wing" Communism

 

Dr. Michael Parenti 1986 Lecture "Yellow Parenti"

Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism

But that expropriation of the Third World—has been going on for 400 years—brings us to another revelation—namely, that the Third World is not poor. You don't go to poor countries to make money. There are very few poor countries in this world. Most countries are rich! The Philippines are rich! Brazil is rich! Mexico is rich! Chile is rich—only the people are poor. But there's billions to be made there, to be carved out, and to be taken—there's been billions for 400 years! The Capitalist European and North American powers have carved out and taken the timber, the flax, the hemp, the cocoa, the rum, the tin, the copper, the iron, the rubber, the bauxite, the slaves, and the cheap labour. They have taken out of these countries—these countries are not underdeveloped—they're overexploited!

 

Interested in Marxism-Leninism? Check out my "Read Theory, Darn it!" introductory reading list!

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Parenti Hands (lemmy.ml)
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Dr. Michael Parenti 1986 Lecture "Yellow Parenti"

Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism

But that expropriation of the Third World—has been going on for 400 years—brings us to another revelation—namely, that the Third World is not poor. You don't go to poor countries to make money. There are very few poor countries in this world. Most countries are rich! The Philippines are rich! Brazil is rich! Mexico is rich! Chile is rich—only the people are poor. But there's billions to be made there, to be carved out, and to be taken—there's been billions for 400 years! The Capitalist European and North American powers have carved out and taken the timber, the flax, the hemp, the cocoa, the rum, the tin, the copper, the iron, the rubber, the bauxite, the slaves, and the cheap labour. They have taken out of these countries—these countries are not underdeveloped—they're overexploited!

 
 
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