lemm1ngs

joined 3 years ago
[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago (2 children)

Aren’t there blocklists in many p2p networks? I know in bittorrent there are.

Block lists with torrents were used to try prevent legal implication and a few other reasons all which are largely useless because peers on blocklists can just move to nonblocked ips, especially peers with resources looking to gather evidence.

My point is that it’s not federation what’s the cause of the “fiefdom” syndrome

I disagree but it is a point worth exploring. Thinking what would be the cause likely is that the federated instances exert control over the content rather than just storing and relaying it to the users to deal with.

In theory you could have the same problem in p2p network if a majority of peer nodes applied whitelisting.

Yes you could but it still depends how the content is distributed, peers on the white list could act as relays to those not on the white list. This would risk them being removed but when dealing with so many peers I just dont see lists like that working to segment the network too much. They may as well fork. The desire to remain connected to the larger network will be too much for most users. You could also have underlying blockchains or hash tables that make forking the network not very promising.

When hosting publicly you become responsible of the content

Section 230 and the dmca should still apply, enforcing becomes much harder with p2p but so does defending I think the legal system does make having free speech an interesting problem inspite that the constitution says it should be possible. I think having speech government and companies and many others don't want is part of the plan for these networks. There is a great many authorities not happy at the freedoms the internet has allowed.

Torrents have problems when there’s not enough peers, there’s a lot of dead torrents out there showing this.

Yes but I think keeping the text part of these platforms alive should be much easier. Torrent only needs 1 peer(seed) with a full copy, a social network can easily have 50000 users which is a lot of resistance and redundancy.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago (6 children)

Communities are already some kind of federation.

This is an excellent interpretation. On federated platforms there is federations inside federations. Its superfluous really, but it gets worse where communities get repeated.

Ok but nobody has the power to enforce the rules right? How do you deal with trolling and spamming? Does every user have to block every troll one by one?

Well it could depend on what you mean by enforce. There is moderators and they can enforce rules, it's just each user is put kind of in an admin position to pick and choose the moderators. You can also have groups of moderators controlled by other users for any user to use, which is some part of how discussions.app is doing their 'communities' the other part is each community chooses what #tagged content to use. Aswell the instance could enforce certain moderators and infact some moderators must be set as default to keep the platform clean. The idea is these could be changed individually or with lists of moderators, or users just live inside the curated communities. The other thing is different instances could do it differently with a different set of default moderators.

The whole point of this type of platform/moderation is to solve problems seen on others. You won't be able to own a topic or community 'as such' as users must consent for you to have power. The reality is people are lazy, stupid and will consent to crazy thing as seen from the last year. So because moderators provide a service stopping spam and abusive behavior then people will use them and they will have power. What this really prevents is moderators being bad actors and also people not having good moderation or situations with no moderation when its needed. Because anyone can moderate there should be a much higher supply of moderation and types of moderation. The types of moderation I think is where things can get interesting because there is a heap of behaviours that could be hidden and platforms would be much nicer places, but really it's up to the users what they want and how they experience things.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

They do and difficulty to implement is one of them and because of that neither federation or p2p has been developed the best yet.

I am looking forward to the day everyone can just run an app with no specific servers and the platform works, and content is quickly and optimally distributed

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago (3 children)

I will try xmpp. Matrix is horrible, pics and vids take forever, chat can seem to lag for 10minutes at times! You would think it could be fast, like just distribute the content but its not and I think the servers are overloaded hence p2p is needed

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 years ago

I literally know nothing about it! Yet to read on it, so without any insite I cant discuss it. If you are talking about custom feeds then yes thats the future. On discussions.app they are doing their 'communities' as really custom curated feeds. Anyone is free to make a feed and curate it how they want with others, anyone can use any feed (community).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 years ago (8 children)

Note that I don’t know about the details on how comments/mentions between instances A and C are perceived by instance B.

So I am wondering that too. How does content interacted with on A by C affect B. I know how B would want that which is not to see it. To me all these server to server rules are not ideal and should instead be the users themselves organizing on the platform setting the rules. I know you have that with each community but I am talking also platform wide. The instance does that with its blocks but thats very authoritaian and lacks nuance.

Can you say more about how content moderation and codes of conduct work on a p2p network?

I know how I would do it and how matrix is planning to do it. Matrix is planning to keep it the same as rooms currently do it which is the same as communities here. Server based blocking becomes quite pointless in p2p I think which leaves me wondering how matrix will handle spam as their current main method is to block servers. In p2p you can potentially have new servers continually appear and attack you so...

I would use a moderation approach as like discussions.app is trying but that also really needs to also use how they organize content. The advantage is the approach is grassroots and nuanced with everyone getting the most unique moderation you could expect outside say some wonder ai doing it personally for everyone.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago (4 children)

Yes email is an interesting point, but aren't many mail servers blocked for spam? or many automatically filtered into trash for spam? Mind you so many run their own domains for companies it cant be possible that only a few domains are whitelisted? I am not sure how gmail and others go about blocking for spam but it would have to have a reporting theshold type situation.

I think as federation expands feifdom should be less of an issue but then look at the split in mastodon with gab.

The other thing to think about email is it is user to user messaging, private with laws protecting it. I am not concerned with being blocked or censored in the modern messaging platforms for this because they use e2ee and cannot discern any of the communications. You are still at the mercy of the network you are on and hence p2p helps with that, depending on hardware how much though. Wouldn't it be great if we could use the cell hardware in phones to mesh? Thats nuclear world ended or revolution type tech.

I think matrix p2p will have to take a multi type node approach, with them beginning the existing home servers will just act as peers but imagine more will have to be done. Yes propogation will be slow but the tech is quite new so will have to see where it can go. I imagine nodes can adapt or be set to provide more based on resources available much like torrents can. Like a hydrid approach but more dynamic.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 years ago (2 children)

You are correct I need to spend more time here.

Realistically most people are not going to run an instance . Blocking does become a problem when you dont run an instance because most do some blocking or are blocked. Even if you run an instance at some point for any reason it could also be blocked.

Yes my rant is not solely targeted at lemmy put mainly Matrix because that is what I use. I should probably look more at mastodon and some others too. Federation has a lot of spins on the technology.

Its nice that you still get involved with users here, the matrix devs are also quite easy talk to. Have you considered how lemmy might intergate with other federations? I did mention in another post someone was developing forums on matrix. Hummingbard I think its called. I have wondered if chat and forum could be combined in an interesting way, such that they could both possibly flow together but be seperated by alternate uis or view modes. On matrix often discussions can take a forum type format and style with conversations having days or many hours between replies. It would be great if those could end up in more permanent threads.

It may be worth reaching out to matrix and element and seeing if some crossover can occur or even intergration. Their $30million and german health sector selection is a lot of potential dev work to be done.

Thanks nutomic!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

Zambia clearly

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago

cant you rent a room some place cheaper?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 children)

strange I never think of these places as 'link aggregators' but just forums

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 years ago

awesome thanks!

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