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Failure (sh.itjust.works)

submitted 3 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Training to failure is a pretty great idea for beginners and something that should be done often at any training age. Main reason being you need to take a set to within 3 reps of mechanical failure to get a proper growth stimulus. So you need to lean where the line actually is, and remind yourself often.

The vast majority of people have no idea how to push a set hard enough. That’s not my opinion btw, 80% of the people you see walking around the gym get this wrong.

Doesn’t cause any notable damage. You will be extremely sore however if you rush into it. But once you’re accustomed to it you can pretty much train a muscle every 2 or 3 days if you wanted, as long as your sleep and nutrition are on point.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

Certainly agree from my experience with a personal trainer. Never got so sore working out by myself.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Training to failure doesn't increase strength or hypertrophy according to Jordan and Austin (both medical doctors) at Barbell Medicine. https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/t/training-to-failure/11792

But they do use RPE where you estimate how close you are to failure in order to perform a number of reps for that set.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I’m sorry, but the overwhelming scientific consensus is that you need to come within 3 reps of failure (as I said).

Your own source confirms this outright

They definitionally establish their RPE system in terms of reps in reserve (reps away from failure) and their workout templates require you to bring your working sets to RPE 7+. If you look at the graph, you will see that RPE 7 is simply “three reps away from failure”.

Their method for figuring out how close to failure you actually are is also identical to what I described. Notice the graph with the line that says “this is too heavy” and how their lifter is constantly pushing right up against that line.

Additionally, the specific post you linked to is a nuanced take regarding RPE10 vs RPE8 situations. These are very high level programming concepts related to fatigue and total training volume; he’s saying that it’s possible you could train slightly more if you consistently leave 2 reps in the tank vs if you go to full failure every single set. It’s not something beginners should bog themselves down with in my opinion, but more importantly, it’s a complete misread for you to represent it as “training to failure doesn’t increase strength or hypertrophy”. Again, the consensus of experts (including the ones you are citing) is that it does.

I even touched on this exact point when I said non-beginners should “remind themselves [where failure actually is] often” as opposed to taking every set to failure.

I have many extant criticisms of their RPE system and their training recommendations in general, but we are in complete agreement about the basics. My apologies again if this post was overly forceful or rude, but I very much do not want people to be misinformed about this topic and you did present misinformation as if it were a medical fact

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Training to failure is a pretty great idea for beginners and something that should be done often at any training age. Main reason being you need to take a set to within 3 reps of mechanical failure to get a proper growth stimulus. So you need to lean where the line actually is, and remind yourself often.

I need to admit I didn't read your post well enough and so my response was a little off. I think it's important to point out that when you say beginners should train to failure often, this doesn't mean every workout or every set of every workout, it's just a tool that lets you learn where failure is and how many reps you can perform. And there's some debate in all of this, but I think it's pretty well accepted that training to failure does not in itself provide results above other methods.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

I need to admit I didn't read your post well enough and so my response was a little off

Sure, no worries

I think it's important to point out that when you say beginners should train to failure often, this doesn't mean every workout or every set of every workout, it's just a tool that lets you learn where failure is and how many reps you can perform.

Definitely, training to failure should be done at least occasionally for this reason. Although I would add that if one simply enjoys training to failure on every exercise there isn’t any inherent problem with that. Tons of people bring every exercise to failure without it ever causing a plateau, it depends on your split and your recovery.

I think it's pretty well accepted that training to failure does not in itself provide results above other methods.

Everything 0-3RIR is equally optimal when volume is equated. So any method that keeps you within that range can be made to work very well. The important thing is to make sure you’re not one of the 80% of people training waaaaay too light