cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/6541859
Wiki - The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually ceased or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
Teachable moment here. Your reply is why the paradox of tolerance needs to be taught to everyone, even if it's not perfect. You didn't sign any tolerance agreement upon birth, but treating your fellow humans with tolerance if they are doing the same for you should not be something you have to consciously agree on or physically sign paperwork for.
You're speaking to two separate issues here. Seems like you're on the same page regarding tolerance, so I'll practice some more of that today and see if I can explain the concept of a social contract in layman's terms. Presuming that you're not trolling here.
In essence, the 'social contract' is a mutual agreement between individuals and their respective systems of government that states, "I will allow some of my personal sovereign rights to be curtailed by you in exchange for peace and security". These curtailed rights are absolute freedoms, e.g. the freedom to kill anyone or steal from your neighbor - rights which everyone has but in practice few people use because most people prefer peace and to be left alone.
The social contract is what gives governments the right to rule - because governments are supposed to protect their citizens against the 1% of people in any given society that want to break laws for their own benefit. This obviously is where things start to break down when put into practice. Hopefully you can see how it's supposed to work and why it's essential for modern society. It's a give and take.
If you don't like the social contract in your area, then you vote with your feet if you can. Go somewhere else where they won't care if you dump your night soil into the river, or that won't give you problems if you decide to rob your neighbor. Places like that are usually pretty rough though.
I guess the way that I perceive a social contract is like this, but codified and enforced by a governing body in the form of laws. In a perfect world, the laws wouldn't be necessary, but there's always someone who will maliciously shit the bed and they're why the laws exist. Rational minds may think differently than I do of course and it may be simple but that's how I see things.
And yes - if you don't like the social contract where you live, you move if you can. Or you rebel against it I guess, with all of the consequences that either of those actions would come with. Morality doesn't really enter into the discussion in my opinion because governments are not inherently moral in my estimation - they are judged by how they treat and take care of their people. If governments fail to take care of their citizens then the government should be reformed or replaced with one that will.
You liken a government to a mob offering protection for money, and that is an apt comparison. Don't short change the tax man or they'll throw you in the clink. Do I like that? Not particularly, but I do like the fire department and the federally funded roads I use, so it's a trade off. I could choose to live in the uncharted, unclaimed woods in some backwater country and shit in a bucket to avoid all this cultural folderol, but I like my creature comforts and also I don't wanna shit in a bucket more than is strictly necessary.
If one contract or group says another contract or group can't exist, then we're back at the paradox of tolerance again. Why do they think that way? Is it religion/caste/some other BS that causes this group to be intolerant of others? The end result of this difference of opinion, if not reconciled, generally leads to conflict. Better to talk these differences out if possible, you know?
He needs to ‘work’ on his being autistic? Like he needs to tone down this autistic diagnosis you just performed in order for you to accept him?
Then go live outside society. Your point is invalid. Use of the system known as society is consent to the social contract.
Edit: Your name is on point though, good job there.
Look up contract law - in particular what elements are required. We didn't really have a chance to opt out. Fuck, if I try to just end myself I'll get locked up.
Yeah. If you're in society, advocating for intolerance of others, you're breaking the social contract, so now I can stop tolerating you and tell you that you don't belong in society. If you say you don't accept the social contract you inherently don't accept society. It would be better for you in the wilderness. Wild beasts don't have to tolerate each other. You can live how you like and hate who you want.
Wow you're obtuse. Have you never had an abstract thought in your life? You can't see this social contract is a concept? It's a concept that explains that If we all stop tolerating each other we'd tear each other apart, destroy all the buildings and belongings and everything, and then you WOULD live in the wilderness if you lived at all.
If you refuse to be tolerant of your neighbors, or allow others to be intolerant of them, you are saying you're fine with a little bit of apocalypse happening. All those little bits add up and eventually destroying the social contract, destroying society, because it's the same exact thing. Society IS the social contract. It's not just buildings and roads and lights and pipes and farms. It's the agreement that we want those things, and that since we don't want ours destroyed we won't destroy anyone who doesn't destroy. If you're saying that doesn't apply to you, you're saying you have a right to destroy as you see fit. That's an amazingly brutal and egotistical position. Are you sure you've thought this out? That's a heck of a thing to make part of your personality.
The "social contract" is a well-known term to describe the very basic idea of a society, no matter what your political or philosophical belief
Maybe you'd recognize it as "the golden rule" -- don't do things to people that you wouldn't want people to do to you.
The social contract is a philosophical concept, Dipshit, one hundreds of years old. You can disagree with this concept, but unless you have something more than "I never signed a piece of paper lol," your disagreement can be dismissed as petty ignorance. Or maybe you're just trolling.
Thank you for writing a thoughtful response! My understanding of the social contract is that it's an unwritten agreement that if you want to get the benefits of living in a society (being able to purchase food and shelter rather than having to live in the wild and make/get your own) you have to abide by its rules. Where the Paradox of Tolerance comes in is that being intolerant (in how you treat other people specifically) is disruptive to society, which breaks the social contract. There may or may not be actual laws broken when doing so, but you should expect to be shown the door (also links nicely with "freeze peach" arguments).
Yeah, since the "social contract" is a concept, it will vary depending on what society or even part of society you're in. The Paradox of Tolerance specifically refers to societies that value tolerance of others - there's no paradox in a society that's just fine with being intolerant. When it comes to "is it okay to punch Nazis?", I'm of the belief that it's highly dependent on the situation. If you're meaning to just express displeasure in their ideology, the better way to do that is to collectively "show them the door," make sure they know that their ideas aren't welcome without resorting to violence. But actively oppose them and don't simply ignore them, because they will use any power given to them to suppress others. If the Nazis are violating your rights, then, yes, it's okay to punch them because they've taken a step over the line at that point.
I'm pretty sure this is the opposite of what they meant because as I said, the Paradox of Tolerance only apples to tolerant societies, which the Nazis are demonstrably not a part of. And of course, breaking the social contract doesn't necessarily make you a Nazi. Could you break the social contract in a tolerant society by punching a Nazi? Yes, if you instigated violence without sufficient reason.
Seems like your biggest hang up is the word ‘contract’, which you have assigned a lot of concrete properties to. Would it be easier to understand if they used the word agreement, and described it in softer terms like the general agreement everyone in the world has that punching someone in the face is not an acceptable for of greeting? I mean, no one has said that, and you haven’t personally gone up to everyone and stated this and shook hands on it, but it’s still something everyone agrees on.
The social ‘contract’ is like that, it just uses an unnecessarily official sounding term in it, but ultimately is just the understanding that some concessions have to be made to deal with other humans. The terms of the contract are really to vague to ‘sign’, and when people start referring to more specific terms things can go of the rails pretty quickly, but there is still an implicit agreement. It’s like living in an apartment where you didn’t sign the lease…sure you’re not legally bound by the terms in the same way that someone who did sign the lease is, but your still bound by them in some ways simply by living in the apartment. In the same way, continuing to live in society is the way the ‘contract’ gets signed.
This has everything to do with the paradox of tolerance. It's literally its foundation.
For example, a healthy community would sanction someone like you until you ceased this antisocial and delberately bad-faith character you've chosen to be.
Let's start with my blocklist.
Theories are not proven, that's basic science.
His name is dipshit doesn't understand metaphor
His name is dipshit, and he's a single-celled organism
It’s the same contract you ‘sign’ with your friends or co-workers. People, especially in this thread, break it out as some solid ‘thing’, but it’s like any other ethereal concept that gets referred to by a concrete word. English is hard and not every word brings along every element in every instance. You could say that an ‘agreement’ must have a written, or at minimum a spoken set of terms, but you could have an agreement not to physically fight someone just by a few movements of your body, and ‘break’ that agreement by broadcasting one set of signals and then taking a swing at them.