this post was submitted on 31 Dec 2023
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Every so often i start believing all the posts about how Linux really made a lot of progress, and the desktop experience is so much better now, and everything is supported, and i give it another try.

I've got a small intel 13th gen NUC i use as a small server, and for playing movies from. It runs windows 11, but as i want to run some docker containers on it, i thought, why not give Linux a try again, how bad can it be. (after all, i've got multiple raspberry pi's running, and a synology diskstation, and i'm no stranger to ssh'ing into them to manage some stuff)

Downloaded the latest Ubuntu Desktop (23.10), since it's still a highly recommended distro, and started my journey.

First obvious task: connect to my SMB shares on my synology to get access to any media. Tough luck, whatever tool Ubuntu uses for that always tries SMBv1 protocol first, which is disabled on my synology due to security reasons. If i enable it on my synology i get a nice warning that SMBv1 is vulnurable and has been used to perform ransomware attacks, so maybe i'd rather leave it disabled (although i assume that's mostly the case if the port were accessible from the internet, but still). Then i thought "it's probably some setting somewhere to change this", but after further googling, i found an issue that whatever ubuntu is using for SMB needs a patch to not default to SMBv1 to get a list of shares.... Yeah, great start for the oh so secure linux, i'd need to enable a protocol that got used in ransomware attacks over 6 years ago to get everything to work properly... (yeah, i ended up finding how to mount things manually, and then added it to my fstab as a workaround, but wtf)

Then, i installed Kodi, tried to play some content. Noticed that even though i enabled that setting on Kodi, it's not switching to the refreshrate of the video i'm playing. Googling further on that just felt like walking through a tarpit. From the dedicated librelec distro that runs just kodi that has special patches to resolve this, to discussions about X not supporting switching refreshrates, and Kodi having a standalone mode that doesn't use a window manager that should solve it but doesn't, and also finding people with similar woes about HDR. I guess the future of the desktop user is watching stuttering videos with bad color rendition? I'd give more details about what i found if there were any. Try googling it yourself, you'll find so little yet contradictory things...

Not being entirely defeated yet, i thought "i've got this nice GUI on my synology for managing docker containers & images, let's see if i can find something nice on ubuntu", and found dockstation as something i could try. Downloaded the .deb file (since ubuntu is a debian variant it seems), double clicked the file and ... "no app installed for this file"... google around a bit, after some misleading results regarding older ubuntu versions, i found the issue: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/10/install-deb-ubuntu-23-10-no-app-error

Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn't replace it yet. Wouldn't want a user to just be able to easily install files! what is this, windows?

For real, i see all the Linux love here, and for the headless servers i have here (the raspberries & the synology), i get it. But goddamn this desktop experience is so ridiculous, there has to be better than this right? I'm missing something, or doing something completely wrong, or... right?

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago

I'm not going to say using a different distro will fix all your problems but yeah, your experience is not normal. A lot of this is because Ubuntu is not highly recommended. It's just popular, but there are a bunch of terrible decisions it makes that barely anybody recommends it.

Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn’t replace it yet. Wouldn’t want a user to just be able to easily install files!

Checks out. Ubuntu is also one of the only modern distros that doesn't come with Flatpak, which is a massive store of applications that's quite easy to use and has a huge store of applications.

May I recommend something like PopOS instead? It's based on Ubuntu so everything from there will work on it, including .deb files. It's basically Ubuntu but with way, WAY saner defaults and a better beginner experience. I think your experience will be a lot better on a nicer distro.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Downloaded the latest Ubuntu Desktop

Theres your problem.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Came here to say this immediately after reading this.

I get wanting a “homey” os, but you can accomplish this in many ways (plain ol debian is great!)

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (4 children)

For someone that isn't up-to-date on what's popular and hip (and why), Ubu is still the defacto 'starting point' as it was recommended for yeaaaaars, and so bashing on someone because they went with what was very highly recommended and 'just install Ubuntu, dumbass'-like comments from the last decade+ ago, isn't helping anyone.

There are a shitfuckton of distros. How is an inexperienced (or fuck, experienced) user supposed to know that, the differences between them all, or what works best for their use case? The community is so fragmented as they throw shit at each other (Arch! Pop_OS! Fedora! Debian! "anything with a gui is a loser!"; I've seen it all over the last like 15+ years) that someone asking a question (like this) gets shit on (like this) because 'new users should have immediate experience!' ('entry level job as a jr dev in Go; minimum 20 years experience' comes to mind), 'they are stupid for trying [distro], [my choice of niche distro] would have been way better]', etc... and it just drives people away.

This isn't pointed directly at you/above comment, but it's the mentality, the whole 'what a dumbass for trying X' that hurts what is otherwise (from what I've seen over the years) a pretty helpful and kind community. But fuck me, someone needs to throw a site of like, top 10 starter/simple distros, with bullet points for/against each, and the community needs to embrace it and vote for replacements when one falls out of favor. Expecting new users to know about this or that or if they compiled that one themselves they'd be able to get the features they expect, is just so cringe. An echo chamber, and those that seek help get shit on.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think your troubles might come from the assumptions you’re making of other people based off the assumptions you’ve gleamed from other people in your experience.

My comment, to me, read “that’s your problem right there, hahaha. (Laughing about the commonality of the problem not at anyone) Try out Debian, Ubuntu is bloatware”

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

It's more the combination of negative post votes + comments

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Linux Mint is often suggested as a good transition distro for Windows users. They've got a Debian edition now, although I haven't actually tried it out.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Not really sure what to think when I see posts like this. Maybe there's some people it's just not for. I don't want to be negative, but I think some folks just might not be open to it.

I've been using exclusively Linux for all my computing for over 3 years now. My high-end gaming PC, my work laptop that I service multiple IT clients with, my Steam Deck, my entire home lab, even my phone runs GrapheneOS. And I love all of it.

I use a bunch of different distros, Manjaro, Nobara, Ubuntu, Alma, Fedora, Mint, Lubuntu, with different desktop environments, apps, services like SMB, NFS, DHCP, Apache, TrueNAS, Jellyfin, various gaming servers for Minecraft, Arma 3, Valhiem, etc.

I play scores of different games, online Mutiplayer, single player, indie, AAA, retro titles. I do all my email, ticketing, business accounting, invoicing, banking, Discord, matrix, social media, personal email, browsing, printing, scanning, streaming and editing on Linux. There's literally nothing I do in my personal or business computing that runs on Windows, not even in a VM.

I just don't really know what to tell folks that claim that Linux just doesn't work for desktop use. My systems are more stable than Windows, more customizable, easier to update, configure, and troubleshoot. They run faster, and are quicker to install.

I just switched my parents to Linux Mint this holiday season and they've had no problems, all their basic computing needs Linux handles perfectly and runs better on their super old hardware than Windows ever did.

My friends and I love our Steam Decks, use them all the time, both in gaming and in desktop mode, all Linux there too.

Idk, it has been amazing for me to be 100% free of Windows forever. I don't miss it an all, I just wish I had converted sooner. And I'm not some Linux god who lives in the terminal all the time either, but the documentation and help from the community is endless and has helped me solve any issues I've had.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Yes, it's just you.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To be honest it seems like it's a specific problem to you. I use Linux desktop for many years and for 3 years exclusively and it's a much better experience for me than Windows (in every aspect).

I think it's just a lack of experience on your side. You are comparing your years of experience on Windows with a OS you barely know.

Just because you are a "power user" on Windows doesn't mean you can handle Linux the same way.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I can tell you i don't need any windows experience to browse a discovered network share, enable a setting in an application and have it just work, and click an .msi file and expect windows to not have removed the handler for that file type.

I get it, you like linux, but blanket statements like this are just so unproductive. "and it’s a much better experience for me than Windows (in every aspect).". Sorry, i just don't believe you. I'm sure you're happier with linux for many good reasons, but there have to be things that windows did better.

Just because you are a “power user” on Windows doesn’t mean you can handle Linux the same way.

I'm not expecting that, i just wrote this after 5 hours of frustration when trying to get imo pretty basic things to work. This is not just "i clicked or installed something and it didn't work". I'm a developer, i've got many docker packages running on my NAS, i know my way around a linux terminal. This is "they didn't work, so i started googling, then 2 hours of frustration later i settled on not being able to just browse to my network share in the file manager and mount them somewhere via some fstab editing in the terminal". and "ffs, i just wanted to try a docker gui, how hard could it be to install a deb package which the ubuntu site itself says "deb packages are the heart of ubuntu" (ubuntu must be stone dead if that's the heart). And the refreshrate & HDR is nice to have i guess. But yeah, i want nice things, they don't seem such unreasonable features to request. And i wouldn't mind if i had to follow some complicated guide to get there. It's just after hours of googling, i'm no closer then where i started.

What exactly would be the linux way? It's a nice thing to repeat, but how would you describe the linux way in this context? I'm a new linux user, i want kodi to switch my display to the correct refreshrate when i play a movie. I want to follow the linux way, what is that way?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I think I've already informed you in another thread that .deb is not equivalent to .msi .

The former is a package of one component with its version and information about dependencies. The latter is an installer of something which is supposed to work right away.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's just not true. If you give your 90yo grandma a Windows computer she is gonna struggle hard.

You are a Windows user for now. You need to learn Linux as you learned Windows years ago.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Yeah, but unlike me she isn't a professional developer that has some experience with headless linux systems.

And please, don't avoid the real question: What exactly would be the linux way? It’s a nice thing to repeat, but how would you describe the linux way in this context? I’m a new linux user, i want kodi to switch my display to the correct refreshrate when i play a movie. I want to follow the linux way, what is that way?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I use Linux Mint on several NUC-style computers. I even use it for servers even though it is a Desktop. Based on Ubuntu but it does fewer stupid things. I run many docker containers. Run Plex in docker. Can't speak to the refresh rate in X. Wayland is coming, but it will be a while.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Mint is here to fix the bullshit that Canonical is too corporate trash to fix themselves. Ubuntu is just popular out of leftover reputation from 10 years ago that came along a strong marketing campaign. Today Ubuntu is garbage even for server applications.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Same, switched to Mint years ago and never looked back. Ubuntu is only a bit less annoying than windows these days.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

and then added it to my fstab as a workaround

Use of /etc/fstab is not a workaround. It's the standard place where you add things to mount.

Your problem is that you use googling, watching pictures and clicking through stuff, just like in Windows, thinking that this skill makes you an advanced user.

Instead of googling you can just read the error message, it usually sufficiently explains what the problem is.

Installing software should not change settings like file type associations, I think that's normal. You may think differently. Somebody has made a choice which in this case is closer to my opinion, in other cases that may be different.

Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn’t replace it yet. Wouldn’t want a user to just be able to easily install files! what is this, windows?

This is incomprehensible.

Ubuntu does still have a GUI to install software from .deb packages, I think.

But you shouldn't try to install packages for another distribution using .deb packages (like Debian itself), or packages for another Ubuntu version.

Unlike some software installer in Windows, a package on most Linux distributions doesn't include dependencies, only information about them and the software itself. Say, in Windows you can have the same DLL in a 100 copies and versions if it's not a system one. In Linux you usually have the same library installed and even loaded once.

But goddamn this desktop experience is so ridiculous, there has to be better than this right? I’m missing something, or doing something completely wrong, or… right?

Yes, you are getting something completely wrong, and it's the culture and not some technical difference.

Though I agree that outside of repositories maybe software should be distributed not in the same packages, but like something to be put into /opt, like in olden Linux days and more similar to your Windows experience ; GOG games' installers do that, only use ~/GOG\ Games or whatever you choose.

EDIT: And also Ubuntu as a distribution has some downsides. Try Mageia, it's not widely used, but pleasant. Or Fedora, everyone and their dog is using it. Or OpenSUSE, it's kinda spiritually corporate and they have worrying plans for the following major versions, but as of now it's pleasant.

EDIT2: Also why did you google for software in the first place? You couldn't find what you wanted in the repositories or just wasn't aware how it's done here?

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you need VRR on a Wayland environment, you might want to try Kubuntu or the Fedora KDE spin (as examples). There's also Sway, but a tiling WM may not be what you're looking for.

VRR isn't currently implemented on GNOMEs mutter (though it is actively being worked on).

You can patch mutter with the VRR work yourself (using a copr on Fedora, and perhaps a PPA on Ubuntu), though I wouldn't recommend it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks for the suggestions :). I think in about 50 replies you're the first that's like "hey, maybe there is some way to get VRR working on linux", and not be like "why would you want that? just ignore the stuff that doesn't work on linux".

I'm probably going to stick with windows a bit longer for now, and i'll give it another try when i read that wayland is a bit further along since it sounds like what i need, but is still in its infancy.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

That's fair enough. I don't know if I could wholeheartedly recommend the Linux desktop to just anybody, but I really have been enjoying fedora for a good few years now.

I work in parallel to the gaming industry (IHV) and VRR on Linux (under wayland) is something I've been pretty excited about. It's been functional under KDE Plasma for some time now (and for Sway even longer). I've tested the previously mentioned mutter patch on fedora 38 and it worked surprisingly well, but I believe they're still mulling over the UX (I.e. how this feature should be exposed to end users in the settings UI). Community driven UX design & consensus is hard.

As for the maturity of Wayland, you may find differences in implementation depending on the desktop environment. I believe KDE plasma's inplementation is a bit further ahead than gnomes, and your experience with Wayland under such an environment should be fairly comprehensive, though I don't expect you to have to test individual DEs, so don't take my word for it.

I personally prefer gnome with a couple of shell extensions so I'll have to wait for it to catch up, though in typical use, it seems to do pretty well.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is a case of YMMV. I hate nearly everything about Windows, but there are people who swear by it. After nearly 15 years on it, there are many things I find natural on linux that are rendered difficult for no pissing reason on Windows.

To this day I don't understand what the difference is between the networks one can choose "Home network", "Public Network", etc. . Also, sporadically dying DHCP was so much fun to fix. There were some WiFi networks that worked fine on other computers, but mine just refused to get IP, subnet, and gateway, so I had to copy paste them from others.

Setting up a developer environment was incredibly annoying the last time I tried it on windows 7 because every flipping thing has to go through a GUI that you have to find first. The PATH variable is in some setting somewhere that took me ages to find and it didn't work. Ended up configuring the IDE's environment variable individually, but it didn't have a console in it (very early days), so opening cmd.exe meant trying to find the right env vars to set.

I remember installing a firewall and window deciding that "no, windows firewall has to be activated now", activating itself and conflicting with the installed firewall.

Dunno if it's still necessary, but reg cleaners and defragging were absolutely essential back then to have a fast system for more than a year. Recently had a friend with a slow system and her boyfriend just reinstalled windows for her because he didn't want to deal with whatever it was that was slowing down the system.

Semi-related: hardware stiff was no fun either. Printers were always a nightmare. "Install this Epson driver that installs a bunch of bloatware for free!" and you find out that the installed version doesn't work for some reason, so you have to hunt down why it doesn't work on your particular laptop only to stumble upon drivers for that printer by the damn laptop manufacturer.
Or laptop and desktop manufacturers that packaged their own graphics drivers and were constantly a few months behind the official drivers - and the official drivers wouldn't work on your hardware because the manufacturer had to do something special and your were stuck waiting for updates from the manufacturer. Of course manufacturers had their own updaters that barely functioned, so all you could do was check periodically yourself or wait for a bug to appear, hunt down the reason, find out it's an outdated driver and download it from the manufacturer.

I could go on. The trauma is deep. And don't get me started on those goddamn rainboots (Mac). That system is even worse than windows.

Anyway, all I'm saying is you had a shitty experience with "absolutely basic stuff" on linux desktop, big deal, it's a computer. Computers and software are buggy. Nothing's perfect. No-one claims Linux is perfect, it's just better for whatever they are doing and they are willing to put up linux specific stuff (like the totally valid stuff you pointed out) instead of putting up with windows/mac specific stuff. Linux desktop doesn't rub you the right way, fine. Windows nor Mac rub me the right way. That's the way of the world. We all decide how much stuff we can put up with. Maybe this is the end of the road for you with linux desktop, but it sure ain't for many other people.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

You need Fedora in your life. Problem solved.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Linux just isn't for you. Stick with what you know and never consider that you might just not be as savvy as you think outside of Windows. No shame in that.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's not you.

Out of innocent ignorance and bad suggestions you just chose one of the worst distributions (anything from Canonical) with the worst UI (Gnome).

Learn and just try again, that's totally okay.

If you want to stay in the deb ecosystem I'd suggest Debian with KDE Plasma. Don't let people tell you Debian is outdated or old or something, they are just uninformed. Plasma is also very advanced with VRR and HDR in the process of being finalized or already done.

Most distributions offer a live image so you can try them out in a virtual machine without going through installing every one on your hardware.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I made the same jump about 4 months ago. I had a long history of running servers and trying Linux desktop here and there and finding it lacking. I installed Ubuntu because that was the popular distro for the past 15-20 years. I gave it a month. It blew. Bugs and general broken shit that I had to constantly repair. I finally gave up and figured if I was going to spend time tinkering with every goddamn thing, I may as well be using Arch. Installed Arch and I'm having a much better time. I still have to troubleshoot and fix the odd broken thing, especially after package updates, but it's less tinkering than I've had to do with either Windows or Ubuntu. I'm not saying Arch is your answer, but I bet it's "not Ubuntu".

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I've been on Fedora for a few years now, and been using some kind of Linux as primary for over 15 years. Your experience sounds like something from a few years ago.

If you haven't tried Fedora yet, I'd highly recommend it over Ubuntu, which is likely one of the bigger cause of your issues.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

My rule of thumb has always been, get something from a major manufacturer that is not bleeding edge, so I can be sure driver support is there. That has served me well, and I also usually buy devices that area certified for Linux. That being said, Ubuntu has really jumped the shark and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the result of someone messing up some snaps in some way.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Maybe the refreshrate issue could be driver related, but hardware decoding works. And intel 13th gen is 2 years old now, it's not as if i'm on bleeding edge hardware. The other 2 issues (SMB & installer) aren't even hardware related at all.

And from what i've read the past years, hasn't linux support for newer things improved a lot? Ok, if a new cpu/gpu releases, maybe wait a couple of months for linux to be stable, but 2 years should be fine these days right? I don't think any of my issues are related to hardware support.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I learned that lesson when I'd just built my computer. I was so stoked to see how Linux had changed in the past 10 or so years I've not been using it as a daily thing. Absolute disaster. Turns out it was because my CPU just didn't jive with the kernel. A newer kernel and everything worked smoothly.

Sadly I still mostly use Windows. I want to fill my last NVME slot and give it another go.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

I think that the linux desktop has improved dramatically every year, but there are issues as well. This really isn't unique to linux though, no OS out there fulfills every user's needs (and in the case of linux, there are so many different people/groups with different philosophies making distros, that it can be super hit or miss). I've had my fair share of normal updates breaking the system, or installing ubuntu and getting booted straight to the tty since it didn't ship with nvidia drivers at the time. Even now, when I run an update, I have to manually delete the updated nvidia driver and manually downgrade to the old one because I simply get a black screen with the new one.
The issues are always managable, fixable, but I think that they do make linux very difficult for people without the time or understanding to troubleshoot the problem.
But, when I was on windows I had plenty of things break there too, ads in the start menu, that sluggishness that windows always seems to get if you don't do a fresh install every year or two. I had a game that would crash on boot if I had my USB headset plugged in. And of course, updates breaking the system randomly.

The issues you seem to be having aren't normal, and while I'm tempted to blame Ubuntu, I'm not sure. Ubuntu makes some really strange choices, I feel, and did cause me more issues than other distro's I've tried.
But really the core of what I'm saying is that depending on your use case, linux might suck, but it can also be far better than other OS's.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

As others have said, I think this is an Ubuntu problem, not a Linux problem. I've used Linux Mint Cinnamon and Manjaro KDE on the desktop with literally zero problems. However, I installed Ubuntu on a server because I figured that Ubuntu's (former) popularity would mean there would be a much larger online knowledge pool to help with problems. Also, an IT friend recommended it. Unfortunately, I'm regretting installing Ubunbtu. Canonical's use of snaps at a deep level has caused me a bunch of random problems. Sure, problems can be fixed or worked around, but it is definitely the least friendly distro I've used. I should have heeded the warnings and stayed away from Ubuntu.

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