this post was submitted on 14 Jun 2022

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People who Hate their Country: What's Stopping You from Moving? (lemmy.ml)

submitted 2 years ago by OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

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[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 17 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I was born in China, immigrated to Canada with family when I was a kid so it wasn't my choice, now I'm a Canadian citizen, which came with dropping my Chinese citizenship. Later became a socialist and really admires what China has been doing and wish I'd never left.

Now, because I have a Chinese birth certificate, I could in theory get Chinese citizenship reinstated if I drop my Canadian one, and go back. And there are days where I want to see about doing that. BUT, I really don't know anyone in China (yes I have family there but none of them are that close to me, don't really think I'm "can I crash with you while I get my life together over here" close, at least), but even more damningly, I can't speak or write Chinese that well (and it's one of the hardest languages to learn so), and I grew up under Canadian culture and am pretty alienated from Chinese culture, etiquette, and social rules. Especially Chinese pop culture that people my age are into--this makes the language barrier worse because of how contextual a language Chinese is, there are tons of slang and references that are used in place of formal words that, even if you were formally educated in Chinese language, you might still not get unless you're really knowledgeable in the culture. So my chances of getting a job or even fitting into a friend group isn't that great.

That's why.

[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Really cool info.

If you go to China and get a Chinese citizenship, the Canadian gov't won't tell China that you have a Canadian citizenship. Also you can keep your Canadian citizenship while you live in China on a visa for a while. Besides, the best way to learn the language and culture is to yeet yourself over there :)

[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I don't particularly care for keeping Canadian citizenship if I get my Chinese one back, and you're really trivializing learning language and culture. It. Takes. Many. Years. Speaking as someone who had to learn English as a second language, and that was in elementary school.. It's much harder to do so as an adult simply because you're expected to be better and more formal at language. What are you going to do in the meantime when you can't communicate well or read documents from the office, or even read trivial stuff like street signs, or write a basic email? In school, I had to be exempt from a lot of standard writing assignments, instead being given easier, ESL ones while I learned English. What profession is going to do that for you?

And Chinese is one of those languages where you don't just sound it out. Each character gives you no info on how it's pronounced, each spoken word gives you no info on how it's written. You have to memorise those. And tons of completely unrelated words written completely differently have the exact same pronunciations (think reed vs read but for thousands of words). It also means you can't just punch the letters you don't understand into a translate app, because there are no letters.

IMO, the only way to be fluent in Chinese enough to immediately start participating in society over there is to take a community college course, or several, on Chinese language before you go. Remember, it's consistently ranked as one of the hardest languages for native Western language speakers to learn.

[–] Amicchan@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

And that's why I wish I was born as Chinese!

[–] j_ming@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago

What exactly do you mean by this? A citizen of China? Which province; which language? Do you wish to be born as someone who only speaks Mandarin despite their Chinese parents' native tongue being one of the hundreds of other Chinese languages?

The categorization of 'Han Chinese' as an ethnic group is false nationalist propaganda. It is an arbitrary racial grouping. There is no such thing as A Chinese Culture, there are countless Chinese cultures. "Chinese" is an umbrella term legitimised only by the massive influence of the state and has nothing to do with the actual diversity of its peoples. Each of the so-called subgroups of 'Han Chinese' are NOT dialect groups but in fact full-fledged ethnolinguistic groups. The uniformity of Chinese people is spread by communists to erase minority cultures and languages and force them to assimilate into their imaginary ethnic group. China has more languages than the whole of europe, and the preposterous categorization of say Hakka or Wu or Yue or Min as merely dialects of a Chinese language is how a dominant people destroy the multiplicity of its societies. It's why China government officials will vomit up the sheer ignorance to say "96% Chinese Tibetans can speak Tibetan" and happily continue to ban the use of the dozens of other 'non-standard' indigenous Tibetan languages. It's how the Chinese diaspora all over the world are losing their mother tongues to Standard Mandarin. It's how every Muslim in Xinjiang is being surveillanced. The moral of the story is FUCK IMPERIALIST CHINA!!!

[–] guojing@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

Learning a language is hard, but so is everything else thats worthwile. And even if you cant have a full conversation, its useful to know some basics. Especially if you have Chinese family or friends. To get started, why not watch some Chinese series or movies? Anyway they are much better than the trash coming from United States. I recommend Go Ahead. That site even has a learning mode which looks very helpful.

[–] stopit@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Resources. I have moved several cities in the US in the past, always with jobs or connections lined up...and that was hard. I have, in middle age, moved to a US Territory...which I'm starting to like (i have ok employment, especially for one with no Spanish).. But i would really like to actually leave the US. It's hard for an average person. That reality aside...i would like to say something, i wish my younger self knew...take chances when you are young...go for it, you have so much time and energy to correct mistakes, don't be afraid.

As an almost half century old man, my past regrets have everything to do with the the things I didn't do and nothing to do with the stupid decisions I made...hopefully someone takes this advice.

[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

Love your advice and I will take it!

[+] SudoDnfDashY@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It always amazes me how people trivialize having to uproot your whole life to move to a different country.

[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml -5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

For two reasons -

You only live once, so it's not like it'll be easier later
It's not actually that hard

A lot of people on this site are miserable and warship China - so like, they should just go? China is a cool place to live.

[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

China essentially doesn't give citizenship ever, and even long-term resident status, which is what most immigrants to China has (meaning it could get revoked at any time) is hard to get. Maybe that's why?

It's the same with most other countries: You generally have to have some high level (usually white collar) skill or experience that the country is lacking in, they won't just give you a residence card for funsies. For example, if the country lacks engineers and you're an engineer, you might get in, if you're a janitor, good luck unless the country specifically requires that type of labour or just general labour you can easily be trained in. And you usually also have to get hired by a company there before you get residence, and also most countries mandate that all companies look for people already in the country to fill the position before opening it up to international hires. Or, some countries will let you stay if you complete a graduate program in one of their universities, because, again, you'll be useful to them by that point.

My family has been through the immigration process, and I can tell you that I'm kind of sick of people assuming that you just show up and get a residence card. It's way harder than people who haven't gone through it think.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

I've personally lived through moving between three countries, and yes it is actually hard. Even learning the language and culture takes a while, not to mention getting residence, a job, or making new friends in a country where you don't even speak the language. And the older you get the harder it gets.

Anybody who thinks that you can just pack up and move to China is frankly delusional. I've been learning Mandarin for the past 4 months, and so far I can barely string simple sentences together. So, yeah China is a really cool place to live, and I want to go there. It's not simple.

People who trivialize these things are either being utterly disingenuous or haven't really thought about this seriously.

[–] frippa@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago

China is a warship? Based

[–] bilb@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

Besides what SudoDnfDashY said, I'm sure it really depends on why you hate your country. Or put another way, how much your country hates you. I don't like the United States, but I'm not in any danger here. I also don't assume that any country I choose is going to be thrilled to have me.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

I wouldn't say that I hate the US per se, but I do often find it frustrating and backwards as a whole. But I love my city and have family that I would seriously miss. While I could do frequent trips, I consider that incredibly wasteful environmentally, given that getting to the US requires a long air flight. So I stay here happy with my family while trying to make a difference locally.

[–] MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

The fact that it would be an absurdly privileged thing for me to do and would involve me leaving behind a lot of people I can help. I understand other people have their own valid reasons to move and I don't judge them for it but for me personally, I don't think it would be the right thing to do.

[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I hate my country, but I love my city. It's an issue of the federal government not aligning with the local one, and moving will only separate me from an environment I enjoy. The local government provides protections from the federal on the issues I disagree with, and ultimately I am not very affected by what the federal government does - I simply disagree with it because I think it is dehumanizing and stripping away the rights of others.

[–] KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Previously: Express Entry limitations. I needed an offer letter AND a IELTS score to get into Canada.

Now that I have a UK passport as well as a US passport, the only real restriction is economic. I would need an offer to retain any kind of work visa and income.

Also, i'm a white male. In the US, socially, if you're white, male, and straight, you're more untouchable than anyone else. The system is fucked. I feel more powerless now to fix it than I did before.

[–] j_ming@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

fuck IELTS

[–] incici@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

I guess the answer for most people is money. It's not cheap to move to another country. Add the language barrier and lack of connections, it almost becomes impossible.

[–] Redpandalovely@midwest.social 2 points 2 years ago

Family and friends.