this post was submitted on 22 Jan 2025

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The Racism which happened in FOSS (beehaw.org)

submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

20 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Hello, so a few days ago now, a lot of Racism happened in FOSS and we were wondering what happened to those that were racist by defending the cultural appropriation which was pointed out, either directly or by ridicule.

Sadly the original post (and thus the comments) is gone, though we saved screenshots of all the offending people and posts.

We would like to know if anything was done about these people as we can see nothing in the modlog.

Thanks.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

we were wondering what happened to those that were racist by defending the cultural appropriation

I don't want to dive into the specifics of which words were or were not problematic, but automatically labeling disagreement over an etymological issue of appropriation as racism is, to me, difficult to reason out. Disagreeing with a black person because they're black would obviously be racism. Assuming you understand black culture just as well as a black person because you have some surface-level exposure to it would be racism, sure. Even asserting that black people cannot or do not have any culturally-derived and culturally-important language would be racism.

But I don't think that merely disagreeing about what that language is, especially in cases where there is not a clear origination of a word, is intrinsically racist unto itself. AAE has many words which it itself has adopted from other languages (even non-colonizer ones).

When a clear pattern of use of AAE is at play (which it certainly sounds like is the case for the FOSS creator person, especially with the use of "we be", which as a structure is entirely originating in AAE), disagreement certainly might stem from racism (see: people defending Elvis or Ariana Grande), but that is by no means a sure thing. Many words have muddled histories, or have passed between different dialects of English. This isn't even beginning to get into loan words vs appropriation.

tl; dr - Discussion and disagreement of what constitutes cultural appropriation is not inherently racist.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Hey there! Would you be able to provide more context on the post? A few of us have talked and none of us can recall the post you mention. It appears many of us may have missed it. Thanks! :)

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

There was a post by Elise from here about supporting Pixelfed and Loops financially and I pointed out correctly that the creator of both is a well known cultural appropriator and as such should probably not be supported financially until he stops such behaviour.

Proof was provided via a link to a thread on mastodon since somebody asked for more information. Many people then took to defending him and the cultural appropriation and JAQed off (Just Asking Questions) in public or got extremely hostile to myself and others including a black person who is hopefully still on this instance despite all the increasing incredulity and hostility we had to face.

It ended up with some (which as I said I can provide screenshots for) mocking the very concept of cultural appropriation because of 'natural language evolution' and as such denouncing the very real history and modern day effects of colonialism etc including some other beehaw members such as jarfil which I feel is not within the spirit of beehaw's rules.

If screenshots of this mess are wanted I will gladly provide them, probably after some cropping (if that is okay).

Is this enough information apart from the screenshots or is more required?

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Since you chose to single me out, I feel obligated to respond.

You keep conflating language with culture, then go off about how using a language, or parts of one, supposedly negates the struggles of a community, while someone pointing out the conflation makes them into supporting someone else's cultural appropriation.

Let me tell you now: no, it doesn't, your insistence on that conflation does... which I feel is not within the spirit of beehaw's rules.

Source: Polish raised in the Basque country, both places where quite recently using either the language or culture were punishable by death, both places just fine with other languages picking up some of theirs, and even some of their culture.

PS: guess I could have reported and blocked instead of posting the initial response, sometimes it's hard to decide whether words or blocks are a harsher response.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You don't get to decide what is or isn't appropriation. Black people are constantly telling non-black people to stop using AAE. It is not slang. Also, even if you still believe that language on its own can't be appropriated, AAE is deeply rooted in black folks history and is a huge part of their culture.

At the very least you should listen to marginalized people when they are telling you to stop, even if you disagree

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I can listen, I can mark for non-engagement, I can block (or is that worse?)... even if I still think it's not only nonsense, but also highly detrimental. Like, trying to keep a dialect segregated, because marginalized people want to... what, be more segregated? Seriously? Well, I can try, I still think that's wrong for all the possible reasons.

AAE is deeply rooted in black folks history

From a cursory search, there seem to be some expressions claimed as AAE that weren't a thing until the 2010s, colliding with non-AAE ones. That's not going to end well.

PS: should there be a "marginalized" tag for people? I still think of people of color as just people, and the profile description tells me nothing, or rather the opposite.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

From a cursory search, there seem to be some expressions claimed as AAE that weren’t a thing until the 2010s, colliding with non-AAE ones. That’s not going to end well.

https://oxfordre.com/linguistics/display/10.1093/acrefore/9780199384655.001.0001/acrefore-9780199384655-e-926

Like, trying to keep a dialect segregated, because marginalized people want to… what, be more segregated? Seriously?

It feels like you are listening but not understanding. Think of AAE as a closed practice. You can learn about, you can view it from the outside, but it is not yours to use as you please. It is about solidarity, not segregation. A fine line, but one that has been set by the people who's culture it is

PS: should there be a “marginalized” tag for people?

I don't think so, and it is not just black folks on Lemmy asking people outside the culture not to use AAE. I know no culture is a monolith, but a majority have been saying that for a long time.

I still think of people of color as just people

This has some real "I don't see color" vibes. I get the sentiment, you try not to discriminate, but that also ignores black folk's lived experiences.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Think of AAE as a closed practice. You can learn about, you can view it from the outside, but it is not yours to use as you please.

Help me understand this. It makes no sense to me. I don't even know where to begin thinking about it in terms that I can understand.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Sure. Closed practice is usually in reference to religious practices. Voodoo/Hoodoo are the 2 most commonly referenced closed practices, but a lot of Native Americans have closed practices as well. It basically means unless you are part of that culture, it is not for you and you should not attempt to practice. You miss a lot of the cultural significance and often cause damage to the practice (using white sage for cleansing rituals is a great example). They are often appropriated and misrepresented as evil.

AAE, while not religious in nature, has a lot of cultural reference and significance. It is often misrepresented and appropriated without regards to the cultural origin.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Thanks for explaining further. This is not something I've ever thought about so I'm going to take time to process it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

Of course, happy to help

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Screenshots would help. I’ve been hearing from a lot of trusted persons that the person in question is an asshole. I would like to know more about this please.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

Okay, give me a bit to do some things offline and then I'll get to cropping and uploading them here.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Proof posted.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

Thank you

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

Proof posted.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago

Proof:

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Since I just got out of a discussion that went similar to this off-platform, I guess I'll just share what I wanted to share there:

Discussions go better when there isn't an assumption of hostility from the other side, and where both sides work to understand the emotions and reactions that the other side is having. Think why the other party might be upset. When something upsets you, assume best intentions (unless you have good reason not to), and try to understand both why it upset you and why the other party might think that way.

There is no reason to make enemies of potential allies.

Speaking personally:

Since I grew up around a lot of people speaking AAE in particular, I want to call out that I noticed it mostly tied to income class where I lived, not specifically race or color. For a lot of people who live there, it's the only language they know. The origins are one thing, but it's understandable both why someone would be upset about an appropriated part of their culture, and why somebody would be upset that they're being told they can't use something they've known and which has been a core part of them all their life.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The problem with this I have found is for me at least it only goes one way in that it is usually me that is expected to show good faith and understanding and not the other way around. In the face of such hostility, ridicule and scorn this can be difficult to maintain when 'the other side' is not showing the same kindness.

As can be seen, I did go out of my way to explain and answer questions but was met by increasing levels of disbelief etc and all of their answers were usually nothing I hadn't heard or seen before in similar situations.

Sure. Your point is well made and I get that, however no one in that thread seemed to be making that argument, just that they should be able to use it regardless because they genuinely believed that langauge is free to be used regardless of what the originators of a language have to say, especially if they have been and still are oppressed.

And one or two egregious examples said that it was 'just' slang that was part of Gen Z/Internet culture despite it genuinely having been stolen from black folks, the meanings changed and then gatekept from black people, especially through ridicule.

The other thing is that folks often get confused between AAE and Southern English because in a lot of ways they do sound similar and have had genuine cultural exchange. However, they are not exactly the same.

It also made me very uncomfortable that the one actual black person in the thread was ignored when they said that it was a problem and that they have to live it. Food for thought.

I do appreciate you taking the time to talk to me in an actually decent way and would love to continue this if you would also like to.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

I don't have anything to add to the specific arguments made in the screenshots since I don't personally use AAE (though my wife's family does). I just wanted to clarify that if you have reason not to assume best intentions, then I don't think you should.

I'm just used to a lot of discussions beginning with hostilities these days, and I see it and have to deal with it everywhere. I really just wish that would all stop (not you specifically since I feel there were other instigators in the thread in question), and feel like more reminders can't hurt.