Canadian goth invasion
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Poor Americams can't even afford mobile data, and have to rely on wifi. Come to the 2nd world and experience mobile freedom.
i mean, it's really not like the collapse of the roman empire, because it uh, how do i put this one... Hasn't collapsed yet?
Hasn't collapsed yet?
yep, just like the romans, there's a rich guy turning it from a republic to an empire
we still have a congress and state governments, the judicial branch still exists. The entire rest of the government still exists in an isolated and distinctly separate form.
Rome wasn't built in a day, nor did it collapse in a day.
progress from and to nothingness is nothing but persistent.
It doesn't say the end of the collapse, it is like the collapse, the active part of it collapsing...
Yeah, it took a plague, real shit winter, famine, mass migration invasions and many civil wars. US has a long way to go to reach that point.
Historians might look at this point in time and say "Trump's second presidency severely weakened the dollar. This had the knock on effects to make borrowing more expensive which made it harder to maintain their public expenses. Their issue was that the army always eats first, the people get the rest. No bread and games was ultimately the downfall."
Dont down play what damage trump and musk will do like that. Its like trying to tell the people its better to be occupied by the nazi rather then have crazed conmie rusians ransack and rape their way through europe.
Not trying to downplay what Trump and Musk are doing. They're eroding democracy and turning the US from a mid-level oligarchy to a full oligarchy like Russia has now. I'm talking strictly about the downfall of US global hegemony in the global world order.
Rome took centuries to fall and it's likely that the US will also need a similar amount of time.
Please don't say that. Please let us collapse like the British Empire, or the Soviet Union.
If we follow Rome's trajectory, things get much worse for everyone else for a very long time.
The collapse of the USSR didn’t exactly go smoothly. We’re still dealing with the fallout decades later
All things are relative - like I said, I mean it only in contrast to a fall the way the Roman Empire went.
That last bit is the dark ages myth, mostly created in the 19th century.
The middle ages were way better than is commonly suggested. Aside from a couple of major epidemics, but we've recently seen that we're not immune to that.
O yeah and quite a few warmongering autocrats, about territory and religion. We've risen above that too, haven't we?
::: spoiler
We haven't
:::
That last bit is the dark ages myth, mostly created in the 19th century.
No.
The Dark Ages myth is separate from the idea that the fall of the Roman Empire negatively impacted Europe in a massive way.
For whom though? For the average citizen in Europe there wouldn't really have been a gibsonian fall.
What's the massive negative impact you're taking about?
Yes, for the average citizen. Pottery in Britain didn't return to pre-Roman standards for 300 years. Farming tools and techniques in Western Europe would not recover for some 500, and even then only with the arrival of Islam in Spain. Kitchen utensils in peasant housing in rural Italy saw a sharp decline that would not recover for 700 years, and the quality of housing itself not for almost 1000. That's not even getting into the non-archeological side of things, questioning the exact impact of trade, security, legal systems, widespread literacy...
It's all a bit reasoned backwards, isn't it. I mean the marvels of Roman technology were grand. But the decline of kitchen utensils and the quality of pottery -like most archeology- is a bit dependant on survival bias.
The only ones that were pining for the Roman era were leaders like Charlemagne, who wanted the title. Literacy wasn't so well spread in Roman times either. One could say that the monestary system did more fore literacy throughout Europe than most Romans did. For most parts we're looking at the very elites of roman civilization housing for the poor was abominable. We only started caring about Roman times when we re-discovered their books in the renaissance, most of which were recovered through the Arab world, which peaked in the Middle ages in terms of enlightenment.
It isn't all civilization-esque, where there is a score kept of who's the most advanced.
But they must've suffered with their underpar crockery for sure...
It’s all a bit reasoned backwards, isn’t it. I mean the marvels of Roman technology were grand. But the decline of kitchen utensils and the quality of pottery -like most archeology- is a bit dependant on survival bias.
One of the reasons why pottery is so often cited is because it is very widely used and because it generally survives the ages. We're talking thousands of examples in small regions for a given period of time. Rejecting archeology in examining the past for... pure speculation is insanity.
The only ones that were pining for the Roman era were leaders like Charlemagne, who wanted the title.
Lord.
It was widely recognized, by Christian and secular authors, that the fall of Rome had come at a great cost in the immediate centuries following the fall of the Western Empire.
Literacy wasn’t so well spread in Roman times either.
This is absolutely untrue. Roman literacy was very widespread, though far from universal, including amongst the working class.
One could say that the monestary system did more fore literacy throughout Europe than most Romans did.
No. God fucking no. Charlemagne, since we're on the topic, had to search as far afield as Ireland to get decent teachers for the Carolignian court. Being based in France and Germany, may I remind you.
For most parts we’re looking at the very elites of roman civilization housing for the poor was abominable.
I am specifically talking about finds for rural housing for the poor, not elaborate villas. We can talk about how urban housing for the poor was far superior to the later period as well if you like; we have plenty of examples of insulae to take from.
We only started caring about Roman times when we re-discovered their books in the renaissance, most of which were recovered through the Arab world, which peaked in the Middle ages in terms of enlightenment.
It was widely understood that there was some form of collapse even hundreds of years after the Empire fell, and the living standards of the Empire had passed out of memory, leaving only the remains of their architecture; the rediscovery of Roman literature by the secular elite in the 13th century onward simply put the standards of the past in sharper relief. Hell, multiple military innovations in the 13th-16th centuries were simply and explicitly taking from Roman literature on how their own military worked, all the way up to Maurice of Nassau.
The Islamic World, for that matter, recognized and highly valued Roman literature for a similar reason - because it was very insightful. The difference is that the Islamic World at the time enjoyed a higher standard of living, having taken from the Byzantines and Sassanids in a more functional manner than the collapse of the Western Empire, and had a robust literate culture before the rediscovery of Roman literature (or rather, had a robust literate culture even when they first encountered Roman literature). The Islamic World absolutely recognized, likewise, that the fall of the Roman Empire was a great loss and that something valuable had been lost with it.
But they must’ve suffered with their underpar crockery for sure…
Unironically, yes.
We, in the modern day, take so many things for granted. So many small things that are not so small when you have to live every day of your life without them. To see a formerly robust trade in metal kitchenware and high-grade earthenware reduced to a single cauldron and wooden utensils is a drop in the standard of living - and like I said, that's not even getting into the other uses of pottery, or the houses themselves, or the farming tools, or the non-material benefits of civilization.
Except that what we are living through isn't the collapse of the Roman Empire. It's the Birth of the Roman Empire and the collapse of the Roman Republic.
If we don't put a stop to it at it's beginning, we're looking at a few hundred years of oligarchy under a line of emperors who vary from corrupt and stupid, to capable but evil.
Except that what we are living through isn’t the collapse of the Roman Empire. It’s the Birth of the Roman Empire and the collapse of the Roman Republic.
Counterargument: the leadership change is well thought out, but the economic part isn't at all. The US system is built on consumption => the first thing people cut back under existential duress is consumption. I still don't see a well hashed out plan on replacing consumption with something else to drive the economy. Of course the US could go and start annexing new territories to maintain "growth" but I suspect it isn't really a sustainable approach, and thus far they just let trump talk shit about it as a tool of distraction rather than a concrete plan.
TL;DR: empires need to have viable economies. The US isn't ready to switch away from a consumer society, and scared people don't consume.
at its* beginning
gawddammit. I've been hoisted by own grammar petard. I'm usually pretty careful.
It's important to remember that the fall of the Roman Republic was not the story of an evil dictator destroying a Free People(tm), but that of a sickened plutocratic oligarchy refusing to listen to its people for long enough that the people became directly hostile to the state, and when a political crisis came, it could not call upon the people to save it, considering - perhaps not entirely incorrectly - that to be ruled by an autocrat was not really any worse to them than being ruled by a sufficiently callous and ruthless oligarchy.
The comparison may still be apt.
a sickened plutocratic oligarchy refusing to listen to its people for long enough that the people became directly hostile to the state
Exactly. The only real difference is that modern Caesar (Trump) happens to be an idiot. But it's the same hostility to the status quo that gave him power.
The only real difference is that modern Caesar (Trump) happens to be an idiot.
And a loser, don't forget that.
I have the impression that Neo-Roman Empire would collapse within a couple decades, since it consists solely of Nero(s).
Lol not even close
The Roman empire has not collapsed LMAO 🤣
More so than you know. The United States is modeled after Rome. Even down to the layout of Washington DC is modeled after Rome (the National Mall is equivalent to the Roman forum.) The founding fathers were giant Romaboos. It's poetic that America is following almost the exact trajectory just on a much shorter time frame.
Well documented you say? In an age where dissinformation rules supreme?
Actually, its all digital. So there wont be any documentation.
yeah sure, just be sure to note that WiFi is creepy beyond imagination (and is proposed to keep getting worse)
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/wi-fi-routers-used-to-detect-human-locations-poses-within-a-room