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JWZ weighs in on Signal again (www.jwz.org)

submitted 4 weeks ago by davel@lemmy.ml to c/privacy@lemmy.ml

74 comments fedilink hide all child comments

JWZ previously:

See also: Why not Signal?

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[–] metaStatic@kbin.earth 43 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

Man, I haven't seen a goat.se in years

[–] kitnaht@lemmy.world 23 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

That's probably the only reason I clicked it. Honestly, kinda regret that I did because the author just seems like a dude yelling at the sky because he's wildly critical of the smallest things but doesn't offer up any solutions.

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[–] Poop 6 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Not trying to be pedantic, but the original was goatse.cx

[–] Psythik@lemm.ee 4 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Yeah everyone likes to call it "Goat-see" or "Goat-say", but it was originally supposed to be "goat-secx" i.e. "goat sex".

[–] Poop 4 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

I think part of the confusion may be that when the site was taken down, the mirrors that sprung up were things like goat.se, etc.

I've heard it pronounced "goatsee" and said that myself back when the original site was live. You are 100% right on the intent of the name though.

[–] skankhunt42 5 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Is this a random thought or should I not click the link?!?

Edit: oeuf. There it is. Nice.

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 33 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

okay

[–] ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org 25 points 4 weeks ago

The fact that there are no interoperable third-party implementations, or even third-party builds/distributions of the Signal app

that's not true, Molly is perfectly fine

[–] Lemmchen@feddit.org 18 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Hard to take them seriously, if they can't even use a search engine to realize most of this is complete bullshit. What is this? A Twitter post?

[–] Zak@lemmy.world 15 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

What is this? A Twitter post?

Just about. JWZ is known for his cynical hot takes on tech in general.

I don't think any of his complaints are invalid, though his conclusions are uncharitable at best. Making a communication tool that's both reasonably secure and sufficiently palatable to people who don't know how to use computers to achieve broad adoption is a hard problem with no perfect solutions. If he has a better idea, well... he's a skilled and somewhat famous programmer; he's better equipped than most to implement it.

[–] UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world 5 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children)

There are some fairly good solutions tho. Matrix is still kinda half-baked (specifically thinking about 2.0 and Element X) and Conversations has limited capabilities, but they are fairly easy to use

Edit: Although I would really wish Matrix had a 'normie-mode', with secure and reasonably easy to handle defaults

[–] Zak@lemmy.world 5 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

I use Matrix, and I've moved some conversation with people I met in public rooms there to Signal because it kept failing to transfer keys rendering it unable to decrypt messages. I haven't seen that in a while so maybe it's fixed, but I haven't been using it for one-to-one conversations lately.

Unfortunately, I've found most people have a lot of resistance to adding another messaging app. I don't really understand why that is, but it's true. Asking someone to install a messaging app when I'm their only contact who uses it and they have another way to contact me has a success rate near zero.

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[+] easily3667@lemmus.org 3 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world 3 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Yeah, Element is super easy to use.

You just need to chose a Matrix instance, create an account with username and password that have nothing to do with what follows, log in (not that), generate keys, ideally back up those keys (which you could ignore, but you are prompted to), then it bothers you with cross-signing (which you can also ignore, except you kinda can't, depending on you contacts, so log in again and confirm the devices), then chose another, unrelated instance to be discoverable via mail/phone (which again is optional, except if you want to be or don't want to explain how adding via domain + name works), than add mail or phone number and activate it and boom, you are golden. Except you are not, because if you want Element X, well, you still have no push notifications, which just require you to... Oh, create another account, neat!

Meanwhile on Signal you do what? Punch in your number, confirm, optionally set a PIN, optionally enable backups, done. Yeah, that's not as private, and missing online massage backups, I know, but it's also a 1-3 step setup without any alarming prompts, telling you to do non-straightforward stuff that could very well compromise your privacy. Or having to dig through options and make choices and handle keys you don't understand.

Do you need a reminder that 123456789 is a popular password and 2FA commonly considered a nuisance? Matrix is complicated enough to confuse even (non-ITSec) IT people.

As a professional software developer, I consider Matrix/Element to be quite user-unfriendly (and anecdotally also quite buggy)

Edit: Some clarifications. Describing this easy process was kinda confusing for silly ol' me

[–] breadguy@kbin.earth 18 points 4 weeks ago (12 children)

~~most~~ some of the stuff on that list isn't even true (at least not anymore) lol

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

What specifically isn't true?

[–] breadguy@kbin.earth 4 points 4 weeks ago

4/5, and partially 1 bc mobcoin doesn't use pow or pos.

disclaimer: I don't fw signal or cryptocurrency of any kind

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[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 11 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

Is there a better alternative? I don't see anything conclusive in the link on that front

[–] Yesbutnotreally@lemmy.world 10 points 4 weeks ago

It’s like a politician, “Look how bad the others are” and then not proposing anything better (because at this moment, there isn’t).

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 weeks ago (9 children)

I sure don’t know. SimpleX is suggested, among others: https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#good-alternatives

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[–] breadguy@kbin.earth 4 points 4 weeks ago (8 children)

matrix if you want cloud storage for conversations
jami or briar if you're okay with p2p
simplex for the most secure cryptography and "just works" better than p2p

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[–] furrowsofar@beehaw.org 3 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

The big upside of signal is that it is better then SMS, and has more adoption then any of the other reasonable options. Adoption is still not enough to make it that useful when compared with Messenger and SMS and even with this addressbook thing your complaining about trying to drive it.

Big downsides abound too including needing a phone number, and being tied to a phone.

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