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Thanks Super, saw surprises on the list & helps to have someone jump in for contrast, digest it all in a well-rounded way

Very thoughtful discussion y’all

That's strange. Not saying right or wrong, but in my head, dude is like a cowboy, overly masculine, like literally more masculine than calling somebody a mister. But then it got appropriated by guys (meaning men/boys) over the years and eventually got used for referring to somebody else that was a guy, and never girls. Like a good ole boys club that all men were a part of. And over time started getting used on tomboys and masc women, and I guess that and 'bro' started getting used on girls, too. Which is, optimistically, great. Except homophobia still exists and a lot of guys who would hear "bro that likes to help out their bro" is still commonly used to mean something homosexual.

Bud or Buddy, or pal are the same vein, they're still absolutely masculine, could be used in place of friend but are still masculine or desexualizing. A LOT of language is crazy homophobic.

I think a large part of the issue here may be actually the homophobia, and that calling trans girls bros or dudes, and why that's invalidating, may be because of homophobia and how by coding them as a traditionally desexualized name and that being more comfortable to most guys might be because they're uncomfortable with seeing trans women as women, and thus a sexual option. It validates the trans woman as a chill friend person, but says no I refuse to see you in any way sexual, be it straight OR gay (but especially straight/het) because transphobia and homophobia.

I then presume the question(s):

Is there correlation with those trans girls okay with being called dude and whether or not they are interested, sexually, in men?

What about, then, if there's a correlation between being about to intuit that deep connection? There are also many connections in that logic on the way that simply may not exist.

Or maybe a free mind, free from self imposed homophobia or transphobia?

Or, one that DOES have those self impositions?

An alien, new to our language, culture, and existential limitations would not know or care about such nuances of being called "dude" unless they had previously been subject to categorization and the bigotry of human culture. So, what then, is the difference between an entirely ignorant alien - a seemingly blank slate, and those of us that feel something's off when being called dude, even when the speaker professes beneficence?

To answer that, would require a sample of considered answers from various trans women to why they're offended by it, and then drilling down to see what lies beneath.

Unfortunately, this platform is not the place for said incredibly private and sensitive affairs. So this conversation effectively must come to an intellectual dead end, replaced by an alternative, shallower treatment of minimizing collateral invalidation and emotional minimization: if somebody says you're doing something that truly bothers them, you should stop. Don't try to justify why it shouldn't bother them, that's intrusive, controlling, and hurtful, and is an attempt to invalidate their feelings.

Only if both people want to continue to drill down, respectfully, examining the values of their own perspectives and value in pursuing continued use or dislike of use of the term, should that happen.

But like.... definitely don't trample somebody's dignity. That's bullshit behavior and is worth punching somebody for.

haha, figured it was a thing but all I see is urban dictionary

I don't know about any of that other stuff, but y'all is absolutely you+all, and to me is explicitly referring to other people, meaning more than one. You could do y'all for somebody who is a DiD system maybe.