You can't be feminist without including some of the most vulnerable women in society
this post was submitted on 22 May 2025
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WomensStuff
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I mean, I don't know - I still debate this with myself tbh, it makes me feel a bit ill to include trans men in womens spaces because it's just so transphobic on the face of it, it reminds me of womens spaces like the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival which famously excluded trans women from attending or performing, but allowed fully transitioned trans men not only to attend but to perform ...
There is some implicit notion that when a woman becomes more masculine it is good, and trans men somehow embody the ultimate apotheosis of a woman (i.e. a woman who achieves manhood), it all just reeks of misogyny and transphobia to me. This thinking seems to hate femininity and it negates the male gender identity of trans men.
But being trans is so difficult even for the trans individual to come to terms with or understand that it's not uncommon for trans folks to have complicated relationships to gender. A lot of us fall are not strictly binary, and we fall somewhere between men or women.
Some of us are binary enough but have been so pressured by society to fit in one box even after we realize we don't fix that box we don't feel we can move to the other box.
So I guess the "even trans men" is a way to just leave wiggle room for people to decide for themselves, and to prioritize self-identity, even though that is admittedly messy. And yes, it is to avoid someone feeling wronged by being excluded from a space where they feel they belong.
It's certainly not a notion I hold.
My own stance on this is strictly from the "harm done" angle. Transitioning is already incredibly tough to do. You're probably losing friends. You're probably losing family. Everybody around you is looking at you with different eyes, many of which are hostile.
To suddenly lose an entire community that was supportive (presumably) as well? That would be nasty!
Yes, and being a man is very alienating and lonely ... that aspect of transitioning to be a man can be a bit of a shock I've heard.
I think the rule should allow those people to decide to what extent they belong in a womens-only community, and that gives them the space to make that decision ... there is also the fact that in my mind a big reason for a womens space is to provide a space where people who have been oppressed as women can talk away from the oppressors, and trans men typically have a history of living as a woman and thus having had the experiences of that social oppression (despite being men).
Either way, allowing people to self-identify and choose themselves whether they belong in a women-only community (rather than gatekeeping others identities) seems like the right approach to me.
That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying.
I guess the subreddit allowing comments from trans men but not cis men makes me feel uncomfortable because I'd like to feel like I'm accepted in c/womensstuff because I'm a woman, not because I'm trans. If othera trans people are accepted into a women's community because they're trans and not a woman, and it makes me wonder why I'm specifically allowed here. If that makes sense.
But the polices here are far better than, in your example, womens' communities who accept anyone with two x chromosomes.
And I'm not saying anyone should be excluded on my account. I know what exclusion feels like and it hurts. You're right, it is very individual, and I personally don't want to be anywhere near a men-only space. But there's so much I can never understand about the trans man experience being a trans woman. Keep on doing what you're doing. This is a well moderated community :)
It should be clarified: this is a womens-only community that allows trans & intersex folks (including non-women and trans men) to decide for themselves whether they feel they belong in a womens-only community. We technically allow cis men to disclose whether they're women or not, too - when we don't know, we just ask! It's not that different for a trans man, we just might have extra language of "you decide whether you feel you belong here".
But that's not why you belong here, you belong because you're a woman, silly 😝
I appreciate the clarification. Thank you 🙂