this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
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Except feminism is not biased against men as individuals, it does not even deal with individuals rather it addresses systemic problems.
Oh great! It's just biased against us as a gender.
You know, that's still sexism.
It's biased against a power system where one gender holds most power. If you feel like you are target by that - maybe it's not because you are a man.
Feminism habitually demonizes men, not the powerful. Their boogeyman is called after fathers, not the few people who actually rule and have power. They call masculinity (the characteristics of a gender) toxic. It is misandrist to the core.
How is feminism demonizes men? Curios, since I'm a men and never felt demonized by feminism.
Dude, they don't call masculinity toxic - they say that masculinity has toxic elements. How can you not get such a simple distinction?
It's not.
How can you not see the evidence that is staring you in the face?
That says more about you than about feminism...
They do. They always talk about toxic masculinity, never any other kind. Does that not strike you as intentional?
And you can deny its misandry, but it is obvious to us.
I could link you some resources, but I'm not sure if you're willing to read them and let them challenge your views.
And a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY
And that's just the beginning of the rabbit hole.
What does it say about me?
Exactly - there is masculinity and toxic masculinity. How don't you get that simple distinction? They are not the same. Feminism is criticizing toxic masculinity not masculinity as a whole.
What exactly should I do with random raddit posts and a tedX talk? If you have arguments bring them here and let's discuss.
That you appear to be blind to the demonization of men so rampant within feminism, either willfully or because you're a victim of its propaganda machine.
Does feminism ever talk about positive masculinity? That's the problem: they habitually associate masculinity with toxicity. And the characteristics of a gender (what it means to be a man, or a woman) cannot be toxic.
Instead they should be more careful with their terminology and use for example toxic gender expectations. But they don't. And that's telling for a movement that is so sensitive to gendered language.
If you're interested in getting familiar with our arguments and the evidence, then there are some sources. They are not "random".
And if you're not interested, then I think we're done here.
Possible. Also possible that you have a wrong understanding of feminism, based on biased consumption of media - fed by algorithms that drive clicks. Unfortunately there is no way to know.
Yes it does, quite a lot.
It does not. You have that association - but I for example don't. Most likely due to difference in media that we consume.
For longest part it was expected from men to defend their honor though violent means? Don't you think that this is not a really healthy behavior? Talking about toxic elements of a gender - people don't talk about biology but about societal norms and expectations. And those can be very burdensome on the individual. You can read about it - right here in this thread, people feeling the burden of the expectation to be the provider for example.
Actually an argument I could agree with you upon. Toxic gender expectation would indeed be a better term.
Sure you read Simone de Beauvoir: Second Gender (good introduction to classical Feminism - one should have read, has bit of length like all her works, but is quite insightful) - I go though your links and videos and we meet again in, how long do you need for ca. 1000 pages?, and discuss.
Feminists like the term "toxic masculinity" as it's intentionally and easily mis-usable and provides motte-and-bailey rhetorical defense for bad behavior on their part. This particular tactic comes up frequently, as feminists have a lot of soft power (due to overwhelming control of areas like governmental agencies, media, education, and HR) to enforce a particularly abusable denotation and use it. It certainly seems like feminists are splitting their message to appeal to the groundlings and the balconies at the same time, with different meanings for each. Ew.
My issues with the term. Hm.
First one, as listed above. This one is particularly galling as it highlights how cynical feminists are in practice and how much control they have over communication in like media, education, and HR.
Feminists are uncomfortable using the logical counterpart "toxic femininity", and generally use it to describe women not being assertive enough. As a pattern, feminists reserve negative words to describe men and male behavior while embracing positive words to frame women's behavior.
There is almost no clarity about what is or isn't considered "masculinity". Men getting into fights is "toxic masculinity", but women get into fights too. Hilariously, some feminists also call this toxic masculinity, as they claim this is women emulating men. No, they fight like women for reasons that make sense to women.
Feminism is reluctant to discuss why society (and frequently, specifically women including feminist women) reward men for so called "toxic masculinity". Working too much/hard is bad for men, but women still value earning power very highly when choosing parters. I've heard "man up" and "stop crying" from women plenty, I've actually never heard a man tell me this except in jest. Women are frequently repulsed when men express their concerns and fears, an experience that is sadly common to the point of almost every man I talk to having a story about learning not to so. This is the sort of double-bind that feminists love, because it places blame on men to change behavior while ignoring why the behavior exists in the first place.
I'm a middle-of-the-road, not particularly political, not traditionally masculine, egalitarian. Feminism-as-it-is-practiced has demonstrated too much misandry for me to accept it with a clear conscious. Your mileage may vary.
If you think you can advocate for equality as a feminist, I wish you luck. That you've been dismissive or evasive in every previous post to me makes me think you can't (or simply won't), but that's on you. I won't be replying to you again, this conversation is not useful in any way that I can identify.
Yes, the counterpart feminists will typically use is internalised misogyny. They never use toxic femininity and usually get angry if someone mentions it, which says they are completely aware of the victim blaming nature of the term. They believe that sexism against men actually roots from misogyny, hence their reluctance with terms like misandry or internalised misandry. Agency plays a big role in this as well, men are thought to have complete control over their lives whereas women are thought to have little to no agency.
Not sure what you mean? They are "biased" in the sense that the societal structures favored men and feminism challenged that. But that is also the whole point.
You would kind of have first to look at societal structures when feminism came up. Those obviously changed dramatically (at least in the west) but so did feminism.
Sounds wild to me, living in Germany.
How exactly is feminism responsible for that?
Which is bad because?
Due to systematic discrimination or because they chose other opportunities?
Why do men pay more taxes, is it an US thing - definitely not the case in Germany for example.
Again how would this be related to feminism. Are feminist running USA? Trump? Joe Biden? For real?!
You literally describe how patriarchy is negatively affecting men. Which is also criticized by feminism. Maybe you need to read a bit.
Again I don't see how you, or your son are being punished by feminism. My point was also more about that feminism has a history of addressing societal power structures though the lens of gender. Obviously it will have some outdated elements, but it is being constantly evolved to address more modern problems women - and if you go into more modern version marginalized groups in general experience.
Would be curious to read up how intersectional feminism is demonizing men.
How are lower penalties for women related to feminism, that does not make any sense. Isn't it more the tradtional societal view of men being the violent and aggressive ones that is responsible for men getting an unfair treatment when it comes to sentencing?
But the reason would be the whole point. Is there a systemic disadvantage, then the state needs to intervene - no need to intervene in personal choice. Women choosing to be a stay at home mom, no need to intervene. Women having to stay at home because they have no other realistic choices. That's bad.
So there is a pay gap, you might say - pretty sure feminism is addressing that issue.
But again feminism also deals with expectation put by society on men. For a personal example: I was raised by a rather feminist mother - and I don't really feel any societal pressure on me as a man. Because that's not what I tie my value as human being to.
That is an issue, but again - how is feminism at fault? This is more tied into USA being very neo liberal and having very little social market economy elements, which can greatly reduce the pressure on an individual.
Sure, feminism is challenging the whole structure that is responsible for the most problems you describe. You talk about the pressure of societal pressure men feel - where does it come from. From feminist world view or from the conservative world view. Does feminism expect men to be the sole earner for a family?
Patriarchy is not a theory it an observation of power structures. You can doubt of how much of it is left in modern times, but come on: women could not vote, work, study or be practically an independent adult for quite the long time in history and still can't in some parts of the world. It's silly to claim that there was never a power dis balance between men an women.
Is it based on feminist theory or rather in the conservative view of the male as aggressive and violent?
I did not apply for that position, not sure why you are asking me. People are allowed to feel how ever they feel like. Oh wait, not in conservative society.
Again, how is this feminist fault? Once again the classical archetype of a man being aggressive and violent seems to be the problem here. Like the other guy, you are blaming feminism for issues that clearly root in patriarchal view in men.
Now feminist invented the draft?
How is this demonizing men?
Sure much easier just to say your opponent is delusional and ride into the sunset. Why answering me in the first place if you think that a conversation with me has no merit?
Except it does not.
It explicitly does not.
Have you ever read anything by feminist outside some crazy people on the internet. Like Simone de Beauvoir or something? You seem to have a completely wrong understanding.
What do you mean with again?
From the Wikipedia article it seems to work rather well:
And the feminist author seems to have realized it short comings herself. But sure like with anything there will be bad expressions of feminism.
I really don't get why you prescribe the violent aggressive man to feminist theory. It's the opposite - that is the classical view of men and often the root of the problems men face in society. Feminism on the other hand tells men that they can have other roles, they don't need to be the defender, protector, earner etc. - does not mean that they can't - but that they can chose. It's the conservative view that puts all the pressure on that you are experiencing.
Seems a controversial topic. But I will look into it. Would be a valid example of feminism screwing over man and valid critique.
And those particular feminist are representetve for all feminist?
It's funny since you do exactly the same thing unhinged feminist are doing: taking extreme examples and claiming they are representetve for everyone.
Also I'm definitely not convinced feminist are suppermacist.
I never claimed that those were not real feminist, just not generally representative for all feminist.
So by your logic the whole men-rights movement is misogynist? Since there are clearly some misogynistic elements in it.
removed as bad-faith argument