men
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Except feminism is not biased against men as individuals, it does not even deal with individuals rather it addresses systemic problems.
feminism is not biased against men as individuals
Oh great! It's just biased against us as a gender.
You know, that's still sexism.
It's biased against a power system where one gender holds most power. If you feel like you are target by that - maybe it's not because you are a man.
Feminism habitually demonizes men, not the powerful. Their boogeyman is called after fathers, not the few people who actually rule and have power. They call masculinity (the characteristics of a gender) toxic. It is misandrist to the core.
How is feminism demonizes men? Curios, since I'm a men and never felt demonized by feminism.
They call masculinity (the characteristics of a gender) toxic
Dude, they don't call masculinity toxic - they say that masculinity has toxic elements. How can you not get such a simple distinction?
is misandrist to the core.
It's not.
How can you not see the evidence that is staring you in the face?
Curios, since I’m a men and never felt demonized by feminism.
That says more about you than about feminism...
Dude, they don’t call masculinity toxic
They do. They always talk about toxic masculinity, never any other kind. Does that not strike you as intentional?
And you can deny its misandry, but it is obvious to us.
I could link you some resources, but I'm not sure if you're willing to read them and let them challenge your views.
- https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/tbi4p7/how_has_feminism_harmed_men/
- https://www.reddit.com/user/lightning_palm/comments/t9dho8/toxic_effects_of_feminism_on_our_culture/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/FeMRADebates/comments/3fyx2f/feminism_is_not_for_me_summary_of_my_thoughts_on/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/f19yrr/examining_patriarchy_theory/
And a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY
And that's just the beginning of the rabbit hole.
That says more about you than about feminism…
What does it say about me?
toxic masculinity
Exactly - there is masculinity and toxic masculinity. How don't you get that simple distinction? They are not the same. Feminism is criticizing toxic masculinity not masculinity as a whole.
I could link you some resources, but I’m not sure if you’re willing to read them and let them challenge your views.
What exactly should I do with random raddit posts and a tedX talk? If you have arguments bring them here and let's discuss.
What does it say about me?
That you appear to be blind to the demonization of men so rampant within feminism, either willfully or because you're a victim of its propaganda machine.
Exactly - there is masculinity and toxic masculinity.
Does feminism ever talk about positive masculinity? That's the problem: they habitually associate masculinity with toxicity. And the characteristics of a gender (what it means to be a man, or a woman) cannot be toxic.
Instead they should be more careful with their terminology and use for example toxic gender expectations. But they don't. And that's telling for a movement that is so sensitive to gendered language.
What exactly should I do with random raddit posts and a tedX talk? If you have arguments bring them here and let’s discuss.
If you're interested in getting familiar with our arguments and the evidence, then there are some sources. They are not "random".
And if you're not interested, then I think we're done here.
That you appear to be blind to the demonization of men so rampant within feminism, either willfully or because you’re a victim of its propaganda machine.
Possible. Also possible that you have a wrong understanding of feminism, based on biased consumption of media - fed by algorithms that drive clicks. Unfortunately there is no way to know.
Does feminism ever talk about positive masculinity?
Yes it does, quite a lot.
That’s the problem: they habitually associate masculinity with toxicity.
It does not. You have that association - but I for example don't. Most likely due to difference in media that we consume.
And the characteristics of a gender (what it means to be a man, or a woman) cannot be toxic.
For longest part it was expected from men to defend their honor though violent means? Don't you think that this is not a really healthy behavior? Talking about toxic elements of a gender - people don't talk about biology but about societal norms and expectations. And those can be very burdensome on the individual. You can read about it - right here in this thread, people feeling the burden of the expectation to be the provider for example.
Instead they should be more careful with their terminology and use for example toxic gender expectations. But they don’t. And that’s telling for a movement that is so sensitive to gendered language.
Actually an argument I could agree with you upon. Toxic gender expectation would indeed be a better term.
If you’re interested in getting familiar with our arguments and the evidence, then there are some sources. They are not “random”.
Sure you read Simone de Beauvoir: Second Gender (good introduction to classical Feminism - one should have read, has bit of length like all her works, but is quite insightful) - I go though your links and videos and we meet again in, how long do you need for ca. 1000 pages?, and discuss.
Actually an argument I could agree with you upon. Toxic gender expectation would indeed be a better term.
Feminists like the term "toxic masculinity" as it's intentionally and easily mis-usable and provides motte-and-bailey rhetorical defense for bad behavior on their part. This particular tactic comes up frequently, as feminists have a lot of soft power (due to overwhelming control of areas like governmental agencies, media, education, and HR) to enforce a particularly abusable denotation and use it. It certainly seems like feminists are splitting their message to appeal to the groundlings and the balconies at the same time, with different meanings for each. Ew.
My issues with the term. Hm.
First one, as listed above. This one is particularly galling as it highlights how cynical feminists are in practice and how much control they have over communication in like media, education, and HR.
Feminists are uncomfortable using the logical counterpart "toxic femininity", and generally use it to describe women not being assertive enough. As a pattern, feminists reserve negative words to describe men and male behavior while embracing positive words to frame women's behavior.
There is almost no clarity about what is or isn't considered "masculinity". Men getting into fights is "toxic masculinity", but women get into fights too. Hilariously, some feminists also call this toxic masculinity, as they claim this is women emulating men. No, they fight like women for reasons that make sense to women.
Feminism is reluctant to discuss why society (and frequently, specifically women including feminist women) reward men for so called "toxic masculinity". Working too much/hard is bad for men, but women still value earning power very highly when choosing parters. I've heard "man up" and "stop crying" from women plenty, I've actually never heard a man tell me this except in jest. Women are frequently repulsed when men express their concerns and fears, an experience that is sadly common to the point of almost every man I talk to having a story about learning not to so. This is the sort of double-bind that feminists love, because it places blame on men to change behavior while ignoring why the behavior exists in the first place.
I'm a middle-of-the-road, not particularly political, not traditionally masculine, egalitarian. Feminism-as-it-is-practiced has demonstrated too much misandry for me to accept it with a clear conscious. Your mileage may vary.
If you think you can advocate for equality as a feminist, I wish you luck. That you've been dismissive or evasive in every previous post to me makes me think you can't (or simply won't), but that's on you. I won't be replying to you again, this conversation is not useful in any way that I can identify.
Yes, the counterpart feminists will typically use is internalised misogyny. They never use toxic femininity and usually get angry if someone mentions it, which says they are completely aware of the victim blaming nature of the term. They believe that sexism against men actually roots from misogyny, hence their reluctance with terms like misandry or internalised misandry. Agency plays a big role in this as well, men are thought to have complete control over their lives whereas women are thought to have little to no agency.
The effects of feminism are clearly biased against men.
Not sure what you mean? They are "biased" in the sense that the societal structures favored men and feminism challenged that. But that is also the whole point.
I think you would have to convince me that “societal structures” do in fact favor men. I don’t think they do.
You would kind of have first to look at societal structures when feminism came up. Those obviously changed dramatically (at least in the west) but so did feminism.
my son has been turned away from several classes and trips.
Sounds wild to me, living in Germany.
Men get higher prison sentences than women for the same crimes.
How exactly is feminism responsible for that?
Women get preferential placement and additional resources in education and employment if it is believed that women are under represented,
Which is bad because?
Men are under represented in higher education enrollment
Due to systematic discrimination or because they chose other opportunities?
Men pay more in taxes
Why do men pay more taxes, is it an US thing - definitely not the case in Germany for example.
and receive fewer benefits from government services than women.
Again how would this be related to feminism. Are feminist running USA? Trump? Joe Biden? For real?!
Men in the US have to sign up for selective service, women do not. As a man I would not feel safe calling the police if I was attacked by a woman, the police are more likely to arrest/assault me than my assailant.
You literally describe how patriarchy is negatively affecting men. Which is also criticized by feminism. Maybe you need to read a bit.
Why punish me and my son for a situation I had no benefit from?
Again I don't see how you, or your son are being punished by feminism. My point was also more about that feminism has a history of addressing societal power structures though the lens of gender. Obviously it will have some outdated elements, but it is being constantly evolved to address more modern problems women - and if you go into more modern version marginalized groups in general experience.
f anything, contemporary feminism is doubling down on demonizing men and insisting on yet more special benefits for women.
Would be curious to read up how intersectional feminism is demonizing men.
Feminists are still actively fighting for lower penalties for women while ignoring the plight of incarcerated men. Scotland is trying to get rid of women’s prisons entirely. Women get sympathy, men get the stick.
How are lower penalties for women related to feminism, that does not make any sense. Isn't it more the tradtional societal view of men being the violent and aggressive ones that is responsible for men getting an unfair treatment when it comes to sentencing?
You don’t know what the reason is, and no one much cares. When men outnumbered women, changes were made. Now that women outnumber men, you stopped caring. Ta da, feminism!
But the reason would be the whole point. Is there a systemic disadvantage, then the state needs to intervene - no need to intervene in personal choice. Women choosing to be a stay at home mom, no need to intervene. Women having to stay at home because they have no other realistic choices. That's bad.
they earn more because of social expectations
So there is a pay gap, you might say - pretty sure feminism is addressing that issue.
I think it highlights the fact that more is expected from men
But again feminism also deals with expectation put by society on men. For a personal example: I was raised by a rather feminist mother - and I don't really feel any societal pressure on me as a man. Because that's not what I tie my value as human being to.
Male suicide and homelessness is are major current issues,
That is an issue, but again - how is feminism at fault? This is more tied into USA being very neo liberal and having very little social market economy elements, which can greatly reduce the pressure on an individual.
can you stop for a moment and ask if feminism did anything to oppose it?
Sure, feminism is challenging the whole structure that is responsible for the most problems you describe. You talk about the pressure of societal pressure men feel - where does it come from. From feminist world view or from the conservative world view. Does feminism expect men to be the sole earner for a family?
Patriarchy is a theory that can’t be tested, nor can it make any useful predictions. It’s an idea that men rule for the benefit of men, but that’s clearly not happening. I think oligarchy or plutocracy are closer to what you see, but it’s just easier to blame men.
Patriarchy is not a theory it an observation of power structures. You can doubt of how much of it is left in modern times, but come on: women could not vote, work, study or be practically an independent adult for quite the long time in history and still can't in some parts of the world. It's silly to claim that there was never a power dis balance between men an women.
How about by the Duluth Model teaching cops to always arrest the male, leading to far more and far more harmful systemic sexist discrimination?
Is it based on feminist theory or rather in the conservative view of the male as aggressive and violent?
Are they allowed to feel affected by that, oh arbiter of what people are and aren’t being affected by?
I did not apply for that position, not sure why you are asking me. People are allowed to feel how ever they feel like. Oh wait, not in conservative society.
How about males being specifically ignored in sexual assault data collection, leading to 7 out of every 10 adult US men having been strapped down and mutilated as children having to listen to people whine about the “sexual assault epidemic” and how 1 in 4 women are “victims”?
Again, how is this feminist fault? Once again the classical archetype of a man being aggressive and violent seems to be the problem here. Like the other guy, you are blaming feminism for issues that clearly root in patriarchal view in men.
How about having a gun thrown in their hands while feminists have and continue to exempt themselves and other women from the draft, at every opportunity, including last year?
Now feminist invented the draft?
You could try going outside and seeing the billboards saying “1 in 4 homeless are women, donate to a women’s specific homeless shelter today to stop this epidemic!” like i have to?
How is this demonizing men?
tbh, i can keep going, but at this point you’re clearly delusional in your defense of feminism, and i should know because i have this same “my cult is never wrong” discussion with religious people, and they use the same arguments and tactics to protect their worldview from being challenged.
Sure much easier just to say your opponent is delusional and ride into the sunset. Why answering me in the first place if you think that a conversation with me has no merit?
a sexist one that blames all men for the actions of a few
Except it does not.
and ignores any and all women perpetuating those actions,
It explicitly does not.
Have you ever read anything by feminist outside some crazy people on the internet. Like Simone de Beauvoir or something? You seem to have a completely wrong understanding.
What do you mean with again?
From the Wikipedia article it seems to work rather well:
An early U.S. government sponsored study found that batterers who complete programs based on the Duluth Model are less likely to repeat acts of domestic violence than those who do not complete any batterers' intervention program
And the feminist author seems to have realized it short comings herself. But sure like with anything there will be bad expressions of feminism.
I really don't get why you prescribe the violent aggressive man to feminist theory. It's the opposite - that is the classical view of men and often the root of the problems men face in society. Feminism on the other hand tells men that they can have other roles, they don't need to be the defender, protector, earner etc. - does not mean that they can't - but that they can chose. It's the conservative view that puts all the pressure on that you are experiencing.
And those particular feminist are representetve for all feminist?
It's funny since you do exactly the same thing unhinged feminist are doing: taking extreme examples and claiming they are representetve for everyone.
Also I'm definitely not convinced feminist are suppermacist.
I never claimed that those were not real feminist, just not generally representative for all feminist.
So by your logic the whole men-rights movement is misogynist? Since there are clearly some misogynistic elements in it.
Seems a controversial topic. But I will look into it. Would be a valid example of feminism screwing over man and valid critique.