this post was submitted on 16 Apr 2024
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[–] cygnus 12 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I have a hard time accepting this as a crime. What if the illustration hand-drawn, or clothed but still sexual in character? Is caricature illegal, by this standard?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You'd better not have a particularly vivid imagination or else you'll be prosecuted for daydreaming.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yea, this is a funny thing to think about.

You can jerk off to photos of people, you can imagine some wild things involving other people etc.

If you just create some deepfake porn to masturbate by yourself to, I don't see a big problem with that.

The only issue I can find is, that due to neglect someone else sees it, or even hears about it.

The problem starts with sharing. Like it would be sexual harassment to tell people who you are masturbating to, especially sharing with the "actors" of your fantasies.

There is however another way this could go:

Everyone can now share nudes with way less risk.

If anyone leaks them, just go: "That's a deepfake. This is obviously a targeted attack by the heathens of the internet, who are jealous of my pure and upstanding nature. For me only married missionary with lights out."

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There’s a big difference between a deep fake and a caricature.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah, but only one of degree.

[–] WamGams 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's making an image of someone that portrays them in an unrealistic and offensive context.

[–] WamGams 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So if I use AI to make pornography of 50 men gang banging you, you will consider that to be on the same level as going to a carnival and getting a characture done?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Huh, you must have replied somewhat late to this - I'm sure I checked back here for any replies before I returned to my main instance for good.

Actually, yes. If you sent it to me, that would be sexual harassment (just like if you sent me an unsolicited text description of what you want to do to me), but I don't care what you do in private.

[–] WamGams 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

So if I send it to people who aren't you... it's okay?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago
[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

The difference is so big, it easily becomes qualitative.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Is caricature illegal, by this standard?

No.

The official government announcement is linked in the article btw.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I understand this won’t be a popular statement, but to me, it falls under I know it when I see it.

I don’t know the exact location of the line, but there is no artistic, scientific, or any other kind of merit to someone making deepfake nudes of a 14 year old and circulating them around school. The victim comes first in these cases. I don’t want to debate what is or isn’t child porn. I think we all agree this girl was a victim and this should never have happened.

To get away from the minors-argument: it’s just like how I can’t go around shooting photos of random people when they’re naked and then circulate them. Hell you can barely do that even if they aren’t naked except in particular circumstances where consent to be photographed is taken as a given.

Non-consensual deepfakes should, by and large, not be allowed.

[–] cygnus 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can’t go around shooting photos of random people when they’re naked and then circulate them.

That's wildly different. It's like saying that writing about murder and actually committing it are the same thing.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Deepfakes are already so good in many cases that the differences are basically trivial. The gulf between writing and committing murder is far wider. Not a great parallel IMO.

How would you feel if someone spread nude deepfakes of you? Your partner? Your child? Are you telling me that’s just like writing about doing something and not closer to committing the act and you’d just shrug and move on with your life?

[–] cygnus 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Deepfakes are already so good in many cases that the differences are basically trivial.

Then if anything it gives deniability to real nudes. "It wasn't me, it's fake!"

How would you feel if someone spread nude deepfakes of you? Your partner? Your child? Are you telling me that’s just like writing about doing something and not closer to committing the act and you’d just shrug and move on with your life?

It depends. There's already a legal framework for defamation, so if the deepfake is made public and has a negative impact on me I can use that avenue. Simply making the deepfake, though, is akin to drawing me naked (not that anyone wound want to do that). It's deeply weird but should not be illegal IMO.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It’s not about deniability. I don’t want incredibly photorealistic nudes of me or my family spreading around with little to no consequences. I certainly don’t want to get into prolonged court battles over it. Why does somebody’s unfettered use of AI trump my dignity as a person? We have restrictions on photography and video baked into our legal framework. Why should this be any different?

I can’t imagine you would be so flippant if this was happening to you.

[–] cygnus 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We have restrictions on photography and video baked into our legal framework. Why should this be any different?

Because it isn't real. Why should someone be charged for creating a work of fiction? Do you not see how dangerous that precedent is?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

How is a paper facsimile generated with glass and light any more or less real than a near-duplication in a digital format? You are splitting hairs here. If the average person essentially can’t distinguish between a deep fake and a “real“ photo or agrees it is sufficiently similar for their purposes than it’s moot. Your argument hinges on whether or not something is “real“ and that is not a prior that most people agree with, nor is it a scientific or otherwise objective/measurable benchmark. You can’t just vacillate between science-y sounding responses and opinions like that.

There are deep fakes that look more “real” than some old photos. Where does that factor into this?

I’m being dead serious here when I ask: what constitutes “real”? Because that seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting in your responses. And I don’t really see that word tossed around much in legal frameworks that’s for sure, certainly not as you seem to be using it. I’ve been in the visual/audio media industry for 15 years and I can tell you that your lines in the sand are yours and yours alone. The thousands of releases I’ve been responsible for over the course of my career make that pretty obvious.

[–] cygnus 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m being dead serious here when I ask: what constitutes “real”? Because that seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting in your responses.

That seems pretty obvious to me: a capture of a person's actual body, rather than a fabrication based on other source materials or created out of whole cloth. I'm not sure what your counterpoint might be. Do you consider CGI to be "real"?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you generate a deepfake it's based on information garnered from the person's actual body/face/etc. How is that any different? None of what you are describing is particularly distinguishing or measurable and I'm still failing to see where "real" falls here. If you use my face to generate a fake, because you have to use an image of my face to make that happen which according to you is "real," how is that functionally any different? You're still using my "real" image or whatever.

This reads to me like...I don't know, if I right click a photo and choose "duplicate" on my computer then I've no longer got the "real" image. Because it's "new" pixels not comprised of the original. You are trivializing the source of the image, aka a person.

[–] cygnus 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you generate a deepfake it’s based on information garnered from the person’s actual body/face/etc. How is that any different?

Because it isn't their actual face or body. I'm not sure what's so complicated about what I'm saying. A photo or video is 100% accurate representation of a person, capturing their actual face/body at a real moment in time. A deepfake or CGI model or painting or charcoal drawing is not a capture of their actual face/body but merely a creative reproduction or interpolation.

This reads to me like…I don’t know, if I right click a photo and choose “duplicate” on my computer then I’ve no longer got the “real” image. Because it’s “new” pixels not comprised of the original. You are trivializing the source of the image, aka a person.

This analogy doesn't make sense at all.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

A photo or video is 100% accurate representation of a person

That's a pretty decisive statement considering it's been a core debate since the moment the first daguerreotype was captured and no one has conclusively answered it. If I use an 8mm lens is that an accurate representation of you? No, the lens by its very nature is distorting.

I have to use an image of you to generate a deep fake. You are the source. A photo of you, which again is somehow "real" according to you, is the required source to make this work. It is not like using a photo to paint a portrait. The distinction here should be obvious, if for no other reason than the end goal is an image indistinguishable from a “real” photograph or video.

Again you constantly jump between philosophical and measurable definitions. Your argument hinges on some notion of the "truth of the photograph," which is not a given in the slightest. And at the end of the day, that 14 year old student in Spain was harassed by her classmates in an absolutely vile, fucked up way that is only possible through the use of her "real" image. You need to take a step back and realize what corner you are standing in here. This is not some academic debate, this is real shit with real consequences. Hiding behind some arbitrary line of what constitutes a "real" image does not suddenly make this problem go away. I mean what are you even fighting for here? The right to depict anyone in any way to a mass audience with impunity? As if revenge porn wasn't a big enough issue already.

If someone takes a ton of photos of you and uses it to make a convincing deepfake of your kid(s) having sex or otherwise nude I have a feeling you're going to take this matter a lot more seriously. And make no mistake, that shit is already happening. Because kids can be absolutely horrific to each other. I don't even want to google what adults are doing.

[–] cygnus 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I already addressed how the existing legal framework is able to deal with this. Defamation and blackmail are very well-established legal concepts.

As for the rest, it's clear to me that this discussion is going nowhere and I have no interest in continuing it. I can't argue with someone who believes an artwork based off a photo is exactly the same as a photo.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Deepfakes are largely works of art now? Sadly it does seem this was a waste of time.