this post was submitted on 13 Feb 2025
318 points (97.6% liked)

Linux

50250 readers
1967 users here now

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

Rules

Related Communities

Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 37 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

I'm not surprised by this.

The general attitude around R4L is that it's largely unneeded and for every 1 person actively working against the project, there are 10 saying either "waiting and seeing if it works is the right decision" or "if rust is so good they should prove it."

So as a R4L developer you're expected by the community to fight an uphill battle with basically no support on your side.

We will likely keep having developers on that project continue to burn out and leave until the entire thing collapses unless the decision is made ahead of time to cancel the project.

Every time I read any news about Rust for Linux I leave disappointed by the entire kernel community.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (7 children)

I am with you on that last line. However, I remain more hopeful.

As long as Linus keeps merging code, Rust will eventually win. And by win I just mean that it will overcome the haters sufficiently to render their resistance futile.

There is only so much support infrastructure needed before large chunks of Rust can be committed ( at least on the driver side ). We are not so far away from that. Once real code starts to appear the “show me” will drive adoption elsewhere.

Take this case, it all started over a bit of code. The subsystem maintainer refuses to take it. But it does not require any changes to existing code. It just has to be merged.

Linus can take it directly. If he does that, the Rust folks can start to use it. The sub-system maintainer will lose in the end.

At some point, the battle will be lost by those trying to block Rust.

It all depends on Linus. We will see.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 102 points 5 days ago (3 children)

stalkers who harassed and attacked me and my family

Wtf is wrong with these people?

[–] [email protected] 29 points 5 days ago (5 children)

Isn't this the guy who got called out for trying to use social media brigading to force Linux kernel rust patches through? There's a good chance those stalkers are fictional.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 days ago

The very same, yes.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 31 points 5 days ago

entitlement and/or astro-turfing imo

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 66 points 5 days ago (6 children)

That's really too bad... They are a super talented developer and they were doing something really cool, and making great progress too.

But if they were doing Asahi Linux for fun as a hobby, and if it isn't fun anymore for a variety of reasons, then you really can't blame them.

I'm not sure if there is a "right" or "wrong" here, as this is just one person's side of the story that acknowledges, but mostly glosses over, the possibility that they made mistakes or behaved badly at times too.

But I can absolutely understand the basic concept of burning out because you don't think your hard work is being appreciated, because people are making hard things even harder for you, or because users on the internet let their excitement about a thing push them too far into being entitled.

Hopefully Marcan can find some time to relax and do fun and rewarding things with their time.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 50 points 5 days ago (8 children)

I'm not sure why they feel it's Linus' responsibility to make Rust happen in the kernel. I'm certainly not happy someone is being harassed, but none of this is the fault of the Linux Foundation or the people that have been working on the kernel for decades.

If Rust is going to happen, then it'll happen. Or fork it and make a Rust Linux with blackjack and hookers, and boy, will everyone left behind feel silly that they didn't jump on the bandwagon. But nobody has to make your dreams their focus or even interact with it if they don't want to. And these social media outbursts aren't accomplishing what they think they're accomplishing.

[–] [email protected] 55 points 5 days ago (42 children)

If Rust is going to happen, then it'll happen.

How can it happen if individual maintainers say they'll do everything in their power to keep Rust out of the kernel? There's fundamentally no way forward. The R4L devs already gave every commitment they could, but some maintainers fundamentally don't want it.

And before anyone brings it up: no, the maintainers weren't asked to touch Rust code or not break Rust code or anything else.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Fact is Rust isn’t ready for every part of the kernel. C/Rust interop is still a growing pain for Linux and troubleshooting issues at the boundary require a developer to be good at both. It’s an uphill battle, and instead of inciting flame wars they could have fostered cooperation around the parts of the kernel that were more prepared. While their work is appreciated and they are incredibly talented, the reality is that social pressures are going to dictate development. At the end of the day software is used by people. Their expectations are not law, but they do need addressed to preserve public opinion.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 5 days ago (7 children)

Again: what cooperation is possible when the maintainer says "I'll do everything in my power to keep Rust out of the kernel"? When they NACK a patch outside of their Subsystem?

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (41 replies)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 4 days ago

I’m not sure why they feel it’s Linus’ responsibility to make Rust happen in the kernel.

That's not what's being said here, as far as I can tell. Linus is not expected to somehow "make Rust happen". But as a leader, he is expected to call out maintainers who block the R4L project and harass its members just because they feel like it. Christoph Hellwig's behavior should not be allowed.

I'm not saying Marcan is necessarily correct, to be clear. It might well be that Linus chose to handle the issue in a quieter way. We can't know whether Linus was planning on some kind of action that didn't involve him jumping into the middle of the mailing list fight, eg contacting Christoph Hellwig privately. I'm merely pointing out that maybe you misunderstood what Marcan is saying.

Or fork it and make a Rust Linux with blackjack and hookers, and boy, will everyone left behind feel silly that they didn’t jump on the bandwagon.

That's what they're doing. But if you read the entire post carefully, he explains why maintaining a fork without eventually upstreaming it is problematic. And it's not like they're forcing their dream on the linux project, because the discussions have already been had and rust has officially been accepted into the kernel. So in the wider context, this is about individual maintainers causing friction against an agreed-upon project they don't like.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 5 days ago (2 children)

why they feel it’s Linus’ responsibility to make Rust happen in the kernel

who does? are you talking about marcan? because as far as i can see, what they're asking for is for linus to make a stance and actually say whether R4L is a thing they want or not. because linus' attitude so far has been "let's wait and see" which hasn't been all that helpful, as said in the blog post.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 days ago

aughhhhhh here's your upvote. git out.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Ultimately Linus’ opinion here does not matter in the positive. He can say Rust in kernel is good, but that does not summon the skill and work to make it happen. He can say it’s bad and quash it, at the potential expense of Linux’s future. His position of avoiding an extreme is a pragmatic one. “Let them come if they may, and if they do not it was less a loss for us.”

[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 days ago

see, i could maybe agree with this if it weren't for the amazing work from R4L that already has been and continues to be done, despite subsystems maintainers putting their foot down and going "Not In My Back Yard, bucko!". how many more maintainers does R4L have to lose before Linus realizes he might need to take a stance as a project lead?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 21 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I’m not placing blame on the Linux Foundation, Linus, or anyone else for that matter. However, I believe that if Linus has publicly endorsed the use of Rust in the kernel, that decision is already largely set in motion. On the other hand, if the community collectively opposes the integration of Rust with C and no action is taken to address these problems, and everyone say no, then there is little to no reason to make the initial statement.

Much of the work being produced by Rust developers seems to struggle, often because it's not made in C and because of maintainers saying "No I don't want any rust code near my C code".

I recognize that there are various technical factors influencing this decision, but ultimately it was the creator's choice to support it.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

Isn't it reasonable for a maintainer to say "no rust here" when they don't know rust, don't want to learn it, and have decades of experience in C, and are maintaining that part of the system

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 days ago

Yes.

But that's not what's happening here. The guy who said no is not the maintainer of the rust code, and is not expected to touch the rust code at all.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Today, it is practically impossible to survive being a significant Linux maintainer or cross-subsystem contributor if you’re not employed to do it by a corporation. An interviewer to the Linux dev that's mentioned in the article: "So what did you do next to try to convince the Linux kernel devs of the need for more focus on end-users?"

I appears as if Linux is a nest that is not built with a consistent set of user-centric principles. Instead, it seems that each part of the nest is built with a specific corporation or project in mind.

Assuming I'm right that Linux is built with project-based thinking and not product-based thinking, I do wonder what a user-centric Linux or another user-centric FLOSS OS would be like, an OS that is so smoothly built that users come to think of it not as an OS for tech-savvy people, but an obvious alternative that you install immediately after getting a computer.

If Linux is indeed built with project-based thinking, then I wonder why that is. The uncharitable explanation is that someone doesn't want Linux to have a MacOS-like smooth and gorgeous experience. If you don't think MacOS is smooth and gorgeous, I'll address that.

I know some people have suffered immensely with Apple products not only because Apple builds devices that can't be repaired, but because of things simply not working. However, there are many people who love Apple. That's the kind of passionate advocacy that I would love to see in Linux, and not just around freedom and value-based judgements. I want Linux to be thought of as the least-friction tool for professional or recreational use. I want people to think of Linux as gorgeous and usable.

Of course, we can apply Hanlon's razor to this situation ("Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by [ignorance or lack of skill or practice]."). Managing a product is difficult. Managing a community is difficult. When the nest's design is not built by a team constantly seeking to care about users, but instead by a bunch of users pecking into the nest until their corner is shaped the way they want, it's not surprising to see a lack of user-centricity.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 5 days ago (13 children)

Don't desktop environments e.g., GNOME, KDE, fit the bill here? Sure they have their problems, but they are IMO about as polished as macOS or Windows.

load more comments (13 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›