this post was submitted on 10 Mar 2025
68 points (94.7% liked)

Europe

3811 readers
1926 users here now

News and information from Europe 🇪🇺

(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)

Rules (2024-08-30)

  1. This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
  2. No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
  3. Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
  4. No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism.
  5. Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
  6. If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
  7. Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in [email protected]. (They're cool, you should subscribe there too!)
  8. Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
  9. No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)

(This list may get expanded when necessary.)

We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.

If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.

If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to the mods: @[email protected], @[email protected], or @[email protected].

founded 8 months ago
MODERATORS
 

There were many lingua francas of which French was supposedly the first global lingua franca. That changed and it became English (from what I understand). We will probably see another language become the lingua franca, so my question is: should it be English? Are there better candidates out there? Why / why not?

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

A lingua franca isn't controllable. French was the lingua franca as it had been the dominant language of trade. Then the British Empire and later USA emerged and dominated global trade, and it became the lingua franca through shear necessity.

In the tech age, English has also become the lingua franca which is likely to cement it's position into the future. In Europe, it's been a convenient second language for many as it allowed Europeans to compete in global trade and also talk to each other with 1 common language, also avoiding nationalist concerns around language. English has also been less controversial as a second language than everyone learning French or German for example given the history of previous european wars.

A language isn't owned by any country, so it doesn't matter that the US is going crazy or that the UK left the EU. English is likely to stay the lingua franca in the west and in Europe as so many people already speak it, it's already well established in schools and culture and in all honesty there isn't an obvious alternative.

In terms of economics, China is powerful but Chinese is spoken largely by one country, and is hard for Europeans to learn due to how fundamentally different it is. India is emerging as an economy, with English it's own lingua franca in a continent divided by numerous languages. Urdu is being pushed by the hindu nationalist government but the global reality is that speaking english is a strength for Indian citizens in trade and global work place, so it's unlikely people will stop learning and speaking English in India in the foreseeable future.

The only other viable alternative in global terms currently for Europe would be Spanish due to the shear number of native speakers. But the problem remains that most Europeans don't speak Spanish and while there is a large number of spanish speakers, they are heavily concentrated in the Americas. Meanwhile English is already spoken widely in Europe, North America outside of Mexico, India, and many other former British Colonies including widely in Africa, Oceania and across Asia.

It's certainly possible things may change, but at the moment it seems unlikely. We're not seeing a huge trend of people moving away from English. One possibility though is that translation apps become near instantaneous and people move away from learning any 2nd language. However I personally think that is unlikely as a translation app can never be perfectly instantaneous due to the nature of grammer - you need the whole of a sentence to translate into another language with a totally different sentence structure, especially for longer and more complex sentences.

So I think it's unlikely English will be displaced as the lingua franca. It is also unneeded - it benefits Europe that a European language is the lingua franca (regardless of the UK exiting the EU etc), and it also benefits Europe as so many Europeans speak English - so the best thing for Europe is to help spread English, and offer a different influence and culture from the US with other English speakers particuarly in emerging economies. English can be Europe's trojan horse for sharing it's culture and values.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

@atro_city I remember a few years ago there was a French far-right group or something that proposed Latin to be the lingua franca instead, lol. But I haven't heard anything since.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

I'm so old that I actually studied Latin in school though I wouldn't be surprised if my school still teaches it.

To be honest it was really useful as a base language for learning French and I've always found it easy to pick up bits quickly and get about easily in Spain and Italy as a result.

Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue though. Would not recommend as a Lingua Franca.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 57 minutes ago

@khannie I studied it too, but a Romanic language is already my native one, so I found it even less useful. Glad I escaped alive.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 54 minutes ago

It's because of the network effect. If you only know your local language and want to unlock speaking to the rest of the world when learning English gets you pretty far.

A lot of people start learning English because a lot of people speak English. Since now Europe, North America, half of Africa, Middle East, South Asia, Latin America, Oceania speak English to some extent that I know of.

It's absolutely bonkers how far English has gotten in one generation so learning anything else as a second language is pretty weird.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Ja, warum nicht Deutsch? Deutsch ist in Europa sehr weit verbreitet und wird von vielen Sprechern auch als Zweitsprache gesprochen. 😉

So, why is it English and not German? Because immigrants in the US decided to speak English. And there are so many people who can understand at least a few words in English. But as a German I'd prefer German, too. It is spoken by many Europeans.

Je suis désolé, chers Français, mon français est trop mauvais pour que je recommande que cela soit recommandé comme la principale chose européenne. 😂

[–] [email protected] 1 points 39 minutes ago

Pardonneh muah, ish speake nest par les languages forrinée. Toot le mond ist speeking mine sprackgghe so varoomm you speekeh anything else? Ish not geunderstand.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 hours ago

Isn't the new official EU language irish English? I speak english with heavy german accent, can this be the ligua franca?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (2 children)

English has a blend of Germanic and Romantic features, which is nice for Europe, and no inflections to memorise, which is also nice. You could also argue that no grammatical gender is a positive feature.

On the downside, the orthography is ass, so maybe there should be a new EU-standard fonetik version. The contractions are confusing. A non-native speaker can maybe add some more, but that's all I've heard about.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago

We could also use this as a chance to push Esperanto!

Gi estis desegnita por ci tiu specifa afero! (Please forgive me its been a while haha)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

As a non-native speaker, I’d say that your summary of the upsides and downsides matches my experience.

maybe there should be a new EU-standard fonetik version.

Or maybe it’s finally time for Shavian alphabet to shine!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Wow, I had never actually heard of that!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 hours ago

If that intrigues you, you should perhaps watch this, or follow the guy in general https://youtu.be/UAI3g6zVyAI

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

Latinam magnam iterum faciamus. 😎 🥂 🧐

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Not even my hate for the US or Britain is enough for me to learn Latin. I had this shit for 5 years and I didnt learn anything. Fuck this bullshit.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

😂😂😂 I had to learn this crap for 5 years, too. And all I can remember is the one sentence which I learned:

"Gallia est divisa in partes tres."

But I don't know for what this is good for. 🤭

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

I know the first few sentences from the first lection of my first Latin book

Uni est Quintus? Quintus in hortus est. Quinte, Quinte, Caecilia clamat"

That basically all I remember.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 35 minutes ago

🤔 when I see this: do you mean "Ubi est"?

My first sentence was: "Marcus silvam currit." 😂

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

Yea, I think English might become the glue between languages that will strengthen, not weaken the EU, same with the Indian Union (they are both Eurasian peninsulas too :D)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 hours ago

I'll laugh my ass off if it's French, I'll really have had the bilingual easy mode languages if that happens.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

It's gonna be Chinese whether y'all like it or not.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago

Eh, maybe, maybe not. They aren't really the juggernaut they used to be, and their birth rate is now below replacement so there's no "they'll just outbreed us" jerk to do, even.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

A lingua franca isn’t decided upon, it just happens to become one because of some power its speakers hold. In the Indonesian archipelago, Malay became a lingua franca because it was used by traders. In Europe, French was a lingua franca because French held a large amount of prestige among the European nobility. Now, English is the global lingua franca because English-speaking media have dominated the global media landscape.

If you want there to be another lingua franca in Europe, that language will somehow need to attain a good reason for it to become one. You can’t just pass a law proclaiming it now being ‘the lingua franca of Europe’.

Forcing people to speak eg. German by law might work, though you’ll probably have to be prepared to coerce people into actually doing so, and thus will have to ask yourself whether that’s worth it. Otherwise, there’s a good chance people will not really give a shit about your stupid law.

You could also maybe abolish all EU level accommodation for other languages than the official language in a new federalised Europe. Then, if you want anything done at that level, you have no choice but to use the official, non-English, language. This seems like it might spur an elitist environment where only a small layer of Europeans (outside of the country from which the speakers of the official language originate) will generally be able to speak that language.

This all seems a bit fantastical, though. Unless Europeans en masse stop consuming English language media, and at the same time start consuming the media of one specific other language (thus it’s a movement away from English and toward some other language by language users themselves), there won’t be a new lingua franca in Europe.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

This seems like it might spur an elitist environment where only a small layer of Europeans (outside of the country from which the speakers of the official language originate) will generally be able to speak that language.

Not your main point, but I watched an interview with some senior translator person at the EC, and they said that the EC very intentionally refrained from codifying a "Brussels English" over exactly this concern: that it would lead to official government documents being written in a form that the typical person in the EU would consider distant, have a "Brussels elites that spoke differently from me" impact. The concern was that this would have negative political effects.

Can't recall the name of the guy, but IIRC he had a British accent. Was an older guy.

Did drive home to me that there is a lot of political consideration taking place over policy decisions that I probably wouldn't normally have expected.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 hours ago

That’s really interesting. Language is one of the main ways we distinguish ourselves (often subconciously). Designing a special Brussels English would likely make the ‘Brussels Elite’ more of a distinguishable ‘they’ indeed.

[–] [email protected] 110 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

I think we are at a point now where almost everybody in Europe is able to speak at least some English. So cultural exchange has never been easier. Why make it more difficult again by adding another language people have to learn first?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

As a Brit (but European at heart and strong “Remain” voter), I am quick to remind fellow Brits that English is a language heavily derived from our European ancestors: French, Latin, Germanic (Proto-Germanic, “Old English”, Old Norse, Romance, etc), Greek, Dutch, Spanish, and more.

I know the United Kingdom has been a royal asshat throughout the centuries but the mark of Europe is intense and undeniable; without Europe, there is no such thing as the English language ~~(except perhaps a number of proper nouns that are rooted in the Celtic people and their ancestors)~~ [Edit: see crappywittyname’s comment below].

I hope our European siblings can find solace in the fact that “English” is a distinctly European language that is full of words from all of our tongues.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

The Celtic languages are closely related to European languages such as Breton, the ancestor languages having been developed and spoken widely in Europe pre-Roman conquest.
I'm only being picky because it adds even more support to your (already very fine) argument. You don't even need that caveat.

[–] [email protected] 45 points 12 hours ago (25 children)

English is a global lingua franca, not just european. And it's not just because of the american and british influence, but because it's a relatively easy language.

Also the translator programs are better and better, this is actually a good and fitting usecase of current LLMs. I think we are not far away from the babel fish.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 hours ago

It's a lingua franca, and I don't even think it's about being easy to learn... avalanche effects are completely sufficient to explain its status. Many people already speak English, so more people learn English to speak with them, now even more people speak English, and so on, and so forth... the development of any lingua franca only depends on the ability to talk to as many people as possible. It's absolutely a bonus if it's easy and quickens the process, but at some point the pure amount of speakers outside ones own country becomes the overwhelming factor.

load more comments (24 replies)
[–] [email protected] 38 points 12 hours ago (8 children)

It’s not possible to please everybody so I vote for Basque and pleasing nobody.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 hours ago

No, most people are pragmatic in this case and eastern countries changed from Russian ~30 years ago so another change isn't coming any time soon.

As my parents saw the change from "it is really appreciated that you can speak English" to "it is expected that you can use it". I can tell that it is so engrained in our multinational exchange that it won't be even desirable.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 hours ago

English is mostly used in commercial now, changing it would be costly and you would need the commitment of many others people to accept a new change in how to approach the world or just Europe, it's a tipe of commitment I doubt people would be willingly to accept.

load more comments
view more: next ›