this post was submitted on 17 Apr 2025
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How could Canada deter an invasion? Nukes and mandatory military service (theconversation.com)
submitted 4 days ago by otters_raft to c/canada
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[–] Thedogdrinkscoffee 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Ok. I get it. You are irrational. You keep bringing up militarism while I have refuted it over and over again. That is not what anyone but you is talking about. Public education is mandatory and you are ok with that because it benefits the individual and society, but adding a 2 year PAID COOP in any number of civil projects of your choosing is now military conscription under threat of state violence? This is irrational.

Show me the lists of state violence for kids who play hookie? Where are the prison camps or mass graves or any other evidence of state violence against students? Is tree planting or community building nationalism? Is a paid coop in a field of your choosing slavery? Are you for real?

I don't know who hurt you, but I'm sorry it happened to you. You have some PTSD sounding ramblings invoking ghosts of something or somewhere or someone that has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED HERE. You keep pulling these ghosts back into the conversation like a trauma response. It is preventing you from objectively seeing what is being discussed and participating rationally. You talk about the worst examples of what other countries have done like that's the only option, rather than imagine what is possible and desirable for us all in a time of crisis. Canada is in a crisis. You also appear to be in one of your own.

For the record, I am not conservative. I'm progressive, pro-labour, class conscious NDP voter capable of complex thought, subtlety and nuance. No bigotry here. I'm fighting for a Canada that rejects American privatization for a return to Canadian standards of a mixed market economy where well regulated private enterprise thrives where it can and social enterprise thrives where it must.

I love Canada. I love even more the vision of what Canada can be when community works together.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Putting someone in prison for refusing to do labor for the state is violence, yes. Definitionally. I don't even know where to go with this conversation if you don't understand that incarceration is violence.

Do you think the draft is a suggestion? Do you think that in countries with the draft that refusing involuntary servitude is like... optional? Just a pat on the wrist and off you go? They incarcerate you at best, and in its most vile instances they literally shoot you.

Involuntary servitude is involuntary servitude no matter whether it's being forced to work under inhumane conditions in a factory or being forced to do community labor. It's wrong. I'll happily plant trees given the choice to do so, but no, the state does not just get to force me to do labor for it.

Nationalism is the basis for a lot of what you've said about Canada yes. Even going so far as to say I don't deserve to have rights because of my strong objection of the draft. No community labor isn't itself nationalism, but Canada isn't my community. My community is the people around me, Canada is the state whose borders I was born within.

Don't even know what you're on about with ghosts or ptsd. My opposition to mandatory enlistment and involuntary servitude is not a mental illness? Unless you want to point out what exactly it is that I'm invoking, it's probably a good idea not to accuse someone of being mentally ill who you know nothing about.

I'm not in crisis. Canada is also a state, not a person. There is an international crisis in the form of the rise of american fascism both in the US and here. The response to this is not authoritarianism. Not having a draft is one of the best things about this country.

Bigotry is not the only thing that makes a conservative. But fair enough, you're an authoritarian. Or at least are fine with some aspects of authoritarianism? The draft is a necessary aspect of authoritarian states. It is an authoritarian policy in that it literally places the rights of citizens beneath the desires of the state. It puts individual bodies at the whim of the state. Directly.

[–] Thedogdrinkscoffee 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You are certifiable. No one but you is talking about the draft. No one is incarcerated for skipping school, but it is mandatory. You keep bringing up nonsense that does not need to exist.

I think we're done here.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I never said anything about incarceration for skipping school. Skipping school and refusing the draft are 2 entirely different things.

If you can't or don't want to defend your position, you're not obligated to do so.

[–] Thedogdrinkscoffee 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I've already refuted your nonsense. You keep invoking the ghosts of authoritarian conscription and refuse to accept the parallels between an enhanced fundamental education with a coop portion and invoke your own irrational fears.

Disingenuous argumentative trolling. Welcome to my ban list.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Conscription is authoritarian, definitionally. Education and conscription are two entirely different things and it is wildly disingenuous to try and equate them.

Cute line, I'm not trolling though. If you're unwilling to defend your position then just stop responding, stop making a spectacle of yourself.

[–] charles 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Just FYI, you're the only one making a spectacle of themselves in this thread.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I was heated, sure. I responded to the notion that conscription can or should be brought here the same way I would if someone said "times are tough were going to have to start using slave labor to save the economy." Mandatory enlistment, forcing everyone in society to join the military, is equivalent to that, in my opinion. It is one of the most objectionable things any society has ever done, in my opinion.

[–] charles 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I completely agree with you that mandatory enlistment is essentially never acceptable as if a conflict is so dire, you'd expect citizens to feel empowered to join the fight without fear of penalty or retribution if they didn't.

That being said, I think most of what you were replying to was not an argument for mandatory enlistment, they were suggesting that we might want to include a couple years of work placements following high school, with one option being military service but other choices being available and none decided by the government. I also believe they were suggesting that the penalty for not doing so would be similar to penalties for not attending high school and not what we've seen countries implement as penalties for conscription. I'm not saying that plan is perfect but I can at least see a significant nuance between their suggestion and military conscription.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

I think a big part of this miscommunication was the language used earlier, like civil service and conscientious objectors. In a system like you've described, i don't think that having that as an option is necessarily a bad thing so long as it is voluntary. There are lots of benefits to programs that incentivise community service. I don't particularly like the way we recruit high schoolers into the military already, I genuinely just think a lot of the practice is manipulative and misleading. But so long as it is voluntary, it is what it is.