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A grim poll shows most Jewish Israelis support expelling Gazans. It's brutal - and true
(www.haaretz.com)
this post was submitted on 03 Jun 2025
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My understanding is that Israeli TV is hugely responsible for making this mainstream. Just like in Rwanda where radio played a huge role in the genocide.
It's almost as if genocide scholars have been warning about a series of patterns over the last couple of years...
Serious question, how much of this has to do with hamas not releasing the hostages. I would imagine they’d be hearing and talking bout getting their people back constantly.
It's hard to say. With or without hostages, October 7 was extremely traumatic; and came in the context of a population already primed to be suspicious of Palestinians. In particular, the West Bank ethnic cleansing was already well underway with the tacit support of the general population; as although for most people that support was more about apathy than proactive support. Looking at how the US lost its shit for decades after 9/11, it is clear that hostages are not necessary for that to happen. Israel has also to deal with follow up attacks, which has a way of keeping trauma fresh.
Regarding the role of the hostages in this case, the first thing to acknowledge is that the actual response by Israel has not prioritized the hostages. Critical members of Israel's current governing coalition have threatened to leave over prior attempts at a hostage deal. This has lead a serious rift developing between the current government and many of the hostage families.
However, from a propaganda side, the hostages have been a major assesset to the current government (both internationally and domestically). Most people are simply not that engaged in politics. We have heard repeatedly from Israeli military leadership that there are no achievat military goals left in Gaza. However, it is hard for that message to break through when the other side can point to the hostages and say "freeing those people is our goal". Nevermind the fact that everyone paying attention knows that military action is not an effective tool of hostage release [0] and almost all of the freed hostages have been freed as a result of diplomacy.
[0] It can be useful for leverage in negotiations; but Israel is well past the point needed for that.
Hamas should free the hostages. Frankly, they should have never taken non-combatant hostages in the first place. That was absolutely a crime.
Most of October 7 was a crime, even without the hostages. Taking the hostages was itself a crime, and continuing to hold them continues to be a crime.
The question of what Hamas "should" do is more complicated. Clearly following international law is not a priority for them, so that justification goes out the window.
In terms of actually advancing their interests, I don't see much benefit to them. Their biggest asset in Israeli domestic politics are the hostages. The political pressure in Israel to free them is real, and the decision makers all know that a deal is the only way to meet that. Further, a not insignificant portion of the population oppose the war in it's current form specifically because of the hostages. The only wins Hamas has gotten has been through hostage negotiations.
In exchange for giving all of that up, Hamas gets a slight benefit in the PR war. It is a very hard sell to say that is a good trade.
If you want Hamas to free the hostages, you need to get to a point where "Hamas should free the hostages" is true from the perspective of Hamas. Then, you can work on convincing them it is true. The good news is that Hamas is very amenable to the idea that releasing hostages is in their interest. That is the entire reason you take hostages: to get some benefit by releasing them.
I am using "should" in a moral sense, according to my own moral compass. I mean that according to my own morality they "should do the right thing". Nothing beyond that.
That said, I agree with your analysis entirely.
Netanyahu want to continue the genocide even after hostages are released . Don't tell the oppressed what to do when the west been ignoring 57 years of occupation and dozens of atrocities like 7 of October through history .
You should ask for Israel to end occupation, allow a one or two state solution then bring people responsible of atrocities on both side
Go through my comment history buddy, you're preaching to the choir. The fact that the Israeli apartheid regime is committing genocide is one thing. The fact that Hamas should not have taken non-combatant hostages is another. And sorry but no, I refuse to identify Hamas with "the oppressed". They are fanatics propped up by slave-owners in the Gulf and politically useful idiots of the Israeili apartheid regime.
You are an idealist ignoring history and human psychology .It would be cool if there was a resistance group that do not target any civilians and do not get money from shady group. This was never the case. I can got in history and see ton of massacre commited by the oppressed due to oppresion. Like nana sahib in india promising safety to a bunch of british civilians amd soldier and ending up massacring them.
Palestinians won't stay silence and keep hearing the useless both commited attrocities bs , waiting arabs and west countries to help which they will never do.
I don't support hamas, i support their actions against the idf terrorists only
Talking about a useful idiot, that's the palestinian autority collaborating with israel while israel arm and protect violent terrorists settlers and expanding settlements
You are so hardcore and knowledgeable of human history and psychology. So hardcore. Yea.
Look buddy. The world fucking sucks, right? People do horrible things. People are locked into doing horrible things. People are desperate, and brutalized and traumatized and beaten down. You can look at that and say, yea that's how it is.
Or you can look at it and say We Should Do Better. You call that idealism? Good. In a world where reality is becoming more brutal by the hour, maybe a little idealism is what exactly we need.
We should do better and stop the occupation. If we don't we let the occupied do what they have to do
Like I said before:
Ending the occupation is the obvious solution. The occupation and the apartheid is the root of all this shit.
Here's the catch for you though: ending the occupation is not realistic, it's the most idealistic thing one could be asking for right now. Because the reality on the ground, created by decades of colonization is that it is simply politically impossible to extract about a million settlers from the West Bank. So "ending the occupation" is exactly the kind of idealism that I'm also pushing for (like "don't take kids hostages"). Because if we are talking about a real liberation scenario, in the best case, we are talking about some kind of post-apartheid mess. Maybe some kind of civil war too.
So don't you fucking run your mouth at me about history and human psychology. I'm tired of supposed hardcore know-it-alls. Hayde malaka.
I don't care about your comment history. You keep saying you oppose occupation then deny Palestinians right to armed resistance.
Here the catch, no occupied country knew that one day there will liberate themselves from occupation, they just has to do what they have to do.
Ending occupation by all mean necessary is certainly more realistic then yelling in the cloud stop occupation and expect the occupier to stop occupying.
That's why I ask for a one state solution. This is also ending the occupation and the only solution to stop violence on both side. Do you agree that a one state solution is the best option and this would happen only if Israel is weaken military and economically?
Strategically, we are aligned, we are in agreement. Yes, a bi-/pluri- national successor democracy with equal rights for all people, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, etc, Arab, Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Druze, etc. Indigenous, Migrant, Refugee, etc. Yes. With democracy and equal rights to all. With safety to all. A state and a society that would honour the Nakba AND the Holocaust.
Tactically, no. I am not denying Palestinians the right to armed resistance. I am denying them the right to cruelty. Killing, injuring, capturing soldiers in battle? That's their right and god damn it I cheer them when they do it. Doing the same things to civilians? Fuck. No. I maintain the need for moral clarity in this shit that we are in. And that's our difference: you are embracing a kind of pseudo-revolutionary nihilism that is willing to accept cruelty if it comes from the below. You pretend that is somehow "by all means necessary", as if kidnapping kids is ever "necessary". Fuck. No. Your politics is anti-political, it is a dead-end, there is no possibility for a future, just hatred and larping Malcolm X. You want an end to the violence? Good. Start acting like it.
The 7 of October atrocities would never happen if the UN country members did all they can do to stop the occupation. They could all decide to isolate Israel economically in the first year of Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank.
Before 7 of October the west countries population completely forgot about the 5 decades of occupation. The western leaders continued to support Israel with arms and economical exchange. The Arab countries was going to sign the Abraham accord isolating Palestinians even more , Israel never stopped building new settlements , they armed the settlers and are protecting them from legal persecution when they attack Palestinians. Israel left Gaza military and decided to control it from the outside. That mean Hamas would have never been able to do such a big operation that would shake the world and reminds the west and Arab countries for their duty to stop the occupation which again decide to ignore their duty and think that some smoke screen action would stop the occupation
I don't think there is a resistance group that didn't do act of terrorism due to oppression and desperation , technically and in real world you are denying Palestinians from armed resistance given by international laws. Without realizing it you basically adopt the status quo both side did terrible things and occupation will maintain.
I will continue to support the resistance actions of defense against the IDF and condemn the atrocities they did until a better resistance group appear or occupation end. I would call for punishing any person who participated in atrocities once occupation end.
Given the thousands of Palestinians taken hostage by Israel both before and after Oct 7, the vast majority of which are non-combatants and are held in nightmarish conditions. How else would Hamas negotiate for their release except via a hostage exchange? Are they supposed to just give up the only bargaining chip they have?
I don't appreciate these "what else should they do" questions. I've been debating pro-zionist trolls for two years now and I no longer accept even their premise. I'm not going to turn around and apply it to Hamas.
I think holding hostages for the sake of getting your own people back from a genocidal ethnostate is maybe a little more justifiable then Zionist apologia for genocide. But maybe that's just me.
If we are talking about combatants, sure. I would not flinch a moment. But civilians? Kids? Nah bro, don't go there.
Nah, I will go there. Taking settlers who stole your land hostage in order to exchange them for your people being held in Israeli rape jails is acceptable. Sorry not sorry.
Ah, well. Better just give up and die then.