Tesla self driving is never going to work well enough without sensors - cameras are not enough. It’s fundamentally dangerous and should not be driving unsupervised (or maybe at all).
this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2025
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Accurate.
Each fatality I found where a Tesla kills a motorcyclist is a cascade of 3 failures.
- The car's cameras don't detect the biker, or it just doesn't stop for some reason.
- The driver isn't paying attention to detect the system failure.
- The Tesla's driver alertness tech fails to detect that the driver isn't paying attention.
Taking out the driver will make this already-unacceptably-lethal system even more lethal.
- Self-driving turns itself off seconds before a crash, giving the driver an impossibly short timespan to rectify the situation.
... Also accurate.
God, it really is a nut punch. The system detects the crash is imminent.
Rather than automatically try to evade... the self-driving tech turns off. I assume it is to reduce liability or make the stats look better. God.
Yep, that one was purely about hitting a certain KPI of 'miles driven on autopilot without incident'. If it turns off before the accident, technically the driver was in control and to blame, so it won't show up in the stats and probably also won't be investigated by the NTSB.
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Even when it is just milliseconds before the crash, the computer turns itself off.
Later, Tesla brags that the autopilot was not in use during this ( terribly, overwhelmingly) unfortunate accident.
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It’s because the system has to rely on visual cues, since Tesla’s have no radar. The system looks at the tail light when it’s dark to gauge the distance from the vehicle. And since some bikes have a double light the system thinks it’s a car in front of them that is far away, when in reality it’s a bike up close. Also remember the ai is trained on human driving behavior which Tesla records from their customers. And we all know how well the average human drives around two wheeled vehicles.
Hey guys relax! It's all part of the learning experience of Tesla FSD.
Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Regards
Elon Musk
CEO of Tesla
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the cybertruck is sharp enough to cut a deer in half, surely a biker is just as vulnerable.
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Cuz other self driving cars use LIDAR so it's basically impossible for them to not realise that a bike is there.
unless it's foggy, etc.
Lidar needs to be a mandated requirement for these systems.
Or at least something other than just cameras. Even just adding ultrasonic senses to the front would be an improvement.
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This is news? Fortnine talked about it two years ago.
TL;DR Tesla removed LIDAR to save a buck and the cameras see two red dots that the 'puter thinks it's a far away car at night when indeed it's a close motorcycle.
It's helpful to remember that not everyone has seen the same stories you have. If we want something to change, like regulators not allowing dangerous products, then raising public awareness is important. Expressing surprise that not everyone knows about something can be counterproductive.
Going beyond that, wouldn't the new information here be the statistics?
My state allowed motorcycle filtering in 2019 (not the same as California’s lane splitting). They ran a study and found a ton of motorcyclists were being severely injured or killed while getting rear ended sitting at stop lights. Filtering allows them to move to the front of the traffic light while the light is red and traffic is stationary. Many people are super aggravated about it even though most of the world has been doing it basically forever.
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I imagine bicyclists must be æffected as well if they're on the road (as we should be, technically). As somebody who has already been literally inches away from being rear-ended, this makes me never want to bike in the US again.
Time to go to Netherlands.
this makes me never want to bike in the US again.
I live close enough to work for it to be a very reasonable biking distance. But there is no safe route. A high-speed "stroad" with a narrow little bike lane. It would only be a matter of time before some asshole with their face in their phone drifts into me.
I am deeply resentful of our automobile-centric infrastructure in the U.S. It's bad for the environment, bad for our wallets, bad for our waistlines, and bad for physical safety.
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Remember, you have the right to self-defence, against both rogue robots and rogue humans.
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Stop dehumanizing drivers who killed people.
Feature, wrongly called, Full Self-Driving, shall be supervised at any time.
If you’re going to say your car has “full self driving”, it should have that, not “full self driving (but needs monitoring.)” or “full self driving (but it disconnects 2 seconds before impact.)”.
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Five years ago, you could not have brought this up without Musk simps defending it.
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Trucks in general have gotten so big they are pedestrian deathtraps
Every captcha.....can you see the motorcycle? I would be afraid if they wanted all the squares with small babies or maybe just regular folk...can you pick all the hottie's? Which of these are body parts?
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On a quick read, I didn't see the struck motorcycles listed. Last I heard, a few years ago, was that this mainly affected motorcycles with two rear lights that are spaced apart and fairly low to the ground. I believe this is mostly true for Harleys.
The theory I recall was that this rear light configuration made the Tesla assume it was looking (remember, only cameras without depth data) at a car that was further down the road - and acceleration was safe as a result. It miscategorised the motorcycle so badly that it misjudged it's position entirely.
I also saw that theory! That's in the first link in the article.
The only problem with the theory: Many of the crashes are in broad daylight. No lights on at all.
I didn't include the motorcycle make and model, but I did find it. Because I do journalism, and sometimes I even do good journalism!
The models I found are: Kawasaki Vulcan (a cruiser bike, just like the Harleys you describe), Yamaha YZF-R6 (a racing-style sport bike with high-mount lights), and a Yamaha V-Star (a "standard" bike, fairly low lights, and generally a low-slung bike). Weirdly, the bike models run the full gamut of the different motorcycles people ride on highways, every type is represented (sadly) in the fatalities.
I think you're onto something with the faulty depth sensors. Sensing distance is difficult with optical sensors. That's why Tesla would be alone in the motorcycle fatality bracket, and that's why it would always be rear-end crashes by the Tesla.
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Whatever it is, it's unacceptable and they should really ban Tesla's implementation until they fix some fundamental issues.
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as daily rider, i must add having a tesla behind to the list of road hazards to look out
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This is another reason I’ll never drive a motorcycle. Fuck that shit.
It's like smoking: if you haven't started, don't XD
As a fellow meat crayon I agree
Bahaha, that one is new to me.
~~Back when I worked on an ambulance, we called the no helmet guys organ donors.~~
This comment was brought to you by PTSD, and has been redacted in a rare moment of sobriety.
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I wonder if a state court judge could mandate its use as unsafe?
They are illegal in every developed country.
But muh innovation! How are genius CEOs supposed to innovate if they can't use the public at large as guinea pigs??
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