this post was submitted on 27 Feb 2025
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It’s 2025 today. The messsge is the same but with a different context.
Maybe instead of leaning on the message of fascists you could express your concerns in some other way. One that doesn't degrade yourself in the process. Like making your own comics with your own words.
The communists werent fascist, they were communist.
I didn't think I'd need to say that but here we are.
The 1930s USSR was squarely under the rule of Joseph Stalin, a brutal dictator. It was a time of mass starvation and persecution.
Yes. And communist, fascist, and dictator mean 3 very different things. I used to think they were synonymous, too, but they’re not.
Communist and fascist are polar opposites. Authoritarian is the extremes of both sides. A dictator can exist at any point in the spectrum, and isn’t unique to any side.
It really does help if we can agree what words mean.
Communist means something different but the USS Fucking R certainly belongs with the other two.
Of course. Many nations have been 2 of the three. But nobody has ever been all 3, because 2 are antithetical to one another.
e: obv the USSR was communist and authoritarian. Who said they weren’t?
Looks like you know your prayers.
"That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it."
?
I’m not defending anything. You seem too defensive for this conversation, if that’s what you think. (Judging by you downvoting my comments before you even reply, that’s becoming obvious.)
Can you actually define the words you’re using, even to yourself? Or are you lashing out at me based on what you feel they mean?
I’m willing to talk to you, but only if we can agree upon what words like ‘socialism’ mean. If not, we’ll only talk past each other, and I think you’ll agree that will waste both of our time.
Authoritarian is not fascism. It is a component, but communism and fascism are not even close to synonymous.
There was one famine from mismanagement, and Stalin wasn't a great guy but this shit is really overblown.
Are you trying to say that authoritarianism is a component of fascism, but fascism isn't the only type of authoritarianism? 'Cause that's not super clear from your wording.
Yes
The USSR was a fascism because it was a central dictatorship with violent tendencies. The actual definition of the term.
That's not the definition of the term, by any ones analysis. The simplest, original definition is that fascism is state and corporate power combined. Like the US has been for half a century.
Didn't the state own all the corporations in the USSR? How would that not be state and corporate power combined?
yunxiaoli, you've been made a complete fool of.
Not really, you're the one that is just taking all 1.67 inches of capitalist dick while trying to redefine fascism away from Mussolini's definition so you can protect the status quo you have been sold as 'not perfect but the best we've come up with'.
Capitalism and liberalism have always lead to fascism. They are the only ideologies to ever develop into fascism. Socialism and communism, maybe even anarchism are the only future humanity has. Humanity can't coexist with capitalists long term.
1.67 is really specific, did that number come from anything, or is it just random?
If you truly promoted socialism you would never support the USSR or the CCP.
And if you knew anything about socialism you'd support the cpc. Maybe not the ussr but we've learned from their failures.
China is a fully socialist state. If you think otherwise you either stopped paying attention to socialism in the mid 1800s, or you don't know enough about China.
I think when most people fantasize about socialism they are thinking of Nordic style and not authoritarian CCP style.
My litmus test is the ability to openly criticize your government. In an open and free society this is allowed.
Any authoritarian society, regardless of economic system, is not in the right track. In my opinion. Then again I only consume western media so maybe the CCP isn't that bad. Can you tell me what happened on June 4th, 1989?
I wanted to make a joke reply and list a bunch of other unrelated things that happened on that day... But of course I find nothing but that one thing...
Google is free dude.
Google doesn't cost money, but it's not free.
Google is evil. Use another search engine instead.
https://european-alternatives.eu/alternative-to/google-search
Authoritarian is the word you're looking for, not fascist.
I'm surprised the comments seem to be defending authoritarianism like it's any more acceptable than fascism. "Stalin may have had millions of people killed and fueled the negative reputation of communism world wide for nearly a century, but at least he wasn't a fascist.". I don't seem to understand why democratic social ownership is considered a worse alternative than letting a centralized tyrannical government harm people unchecked.
I’m not defending anything like that, but:
Authoritarian != communism. Authoritarianism applies equally to communism and fascism. The latter two describe ideology, where ‘authoritarian’ describes scale. Your sentence is like if I said I I use reds, not apples, in my pies. It sort of makes sense, but not really.
You said: ‘I don't seem to understand why democratic social ownership is considered a worse alternative’ yes, exactly! That’s socialism, which is an economic – not a political – system. You can combine that with democracy or communism or fascism.
I really recommend you learn what all these terms mean, because it’s not only super fascinating, but we can each understand and communicate better when we can build upon common concepts.
I've been a democratic socialist for years. Communism is not an authoritarian belief, it is a socioeconomic model separate from that concept. Stalinist Communism -in practice- was an absolutely authoritarian dictatorship with well documented hardship suffered by the Russians, that people for some reason can't seem to unhook from actual proper communism and will defend to the death in a fit of tribalist rage as if all communism is good communism. I chose to define Democratic Socialism rather than use the term intentionally, because I felt like just blurbing it out would come across as a buzzword. I'm not opposed to communism and would prefer socialism, but I am absolutely not going to advocate for Stalinist Communism.
I don't know, the thing annoying me about the tread is everyone is correcting the person by saying "They're Communist, not Fascist!" instead of saying that it was "Authoritarian rather than Fascist". I feel like framing it in the latter way unhooks the term from authoritarianism, but also doesn't preclude it from possibly becoming authoritarian like any other socioeconomic system. I feel like the prior framing gave the impression that Stalinist Communism had nothing to do with authoritarianism in general, which I will absolutely disagree with. Stalinist Communism was absolutely not Fascism, but it was absolutely an Authoritarian Dictatorship and I don't appreciate the implication that it wasn't.
I don't know if any of that makes sense, I have a hard time articulating my points. Feel free to critique and thank you for the conversation.
Words have meanings - if people start calling left-leaning authoritarians "fascists" and no one corrects them, the red-hats will never understand how to differentiate; or why to differentiate.
"shooting a home invader and killing the neighbor next door are both violent killings, so we should classify them both as murder" - you, probably.
I'm using the definition of fascism as it relates to dictator advocacy. I know that confuses a lot of people who associate socialism with left and fascism with right, but it is proper use of the term.
The etymology is rooted in Italian authoritarianism from root words meaning a political gathering of men.
Who has defined fascism as such? How do the practices of Stalinism root in Italian authoritarianism?
Defining fascism as any form of authoritarianism broadens the term so much as to render it useless.
It’s useful to be able to talk about the ways in which the ideologies which governed Franco’s Spain and Mussolini’s Italy are more similar to each other than say, something like the DPRK under Juche. If we want to refer to something as authoritarian, we already have the word authoritarian.
Source?
Maybe you sound like a fascist telling me what to say or think and you should eat shit.
lol
Whose definition of fascism are you using? Eco, Griffin? Which elements of fascism did the Soviet state exhibit?
Of Eco’s traits, I only see disagreement being treason. Nothing else particularly matches the goals or praxis of the Soviets. I’m not pro Stalin, but he wasn’t a “fascist.”
What on earth makes me a Tankie? I’m not a Stalinist. I’m pretty anti-Stalin even - I think the doctors probably did let him die and that was a great thing. I just think words mean things.
Let’s go with Eco, because it’s been fifteen years since I read Griffin. And I’ll pull the wiki summaries for quickness.
Not at all characteristic of the Stalin regime. Rejection of tradition - rejection of Eastern Orthodox religion, traditional serf structure.
Also not accurate - Marxist-Stalinist thought saw time and modernism as progress.
Also just doesn’t quite fit. Action does have purpose, and isn’t motivated by the Freudian death drive in quite the same way.
This one is certainly true, the gulags undoubtedly qualify.
Decidedly untrue. Stalin really loved showcasing different ethnic minority traditions. He was certainly antisemitic, but I’ve read too many accounts about Georgian dancing troops and linguistic revival to see this as accurate. Edit: I will be fair and bring up ethnic deportations and genocide which happened. But it’s not quite fascistic ethnic cleansing. There’s a difference in the way it’s presented to the public, in its motivations. It’s less the heroic struggle against Strangers, but more connected to historical conflicts. Evil and wrong, but not a fascistic “project.”
No, the Bolsheviks explicitly appealed to a lower class.
This one counts, at least in the later years.
No, propaganda tended to portray the battle against capitalism as being easy to win with solidarity.
You don’t need perpetual war with the kulaks.
Entirely incongruous with Soviet propaganda.
No, they wanted engineers to build factories. Stakhanov is not consistent with the imagery of a fascist hero.
Soviet state under Stalin was one of the first to decriminalize homosexuality. Iirc Stalin did a take backsie later. More women were doctors than men. (We seldom talk about women in the movement - lots of pushes for temperance, it was the woman who wanted bread for their children along with the men of the Potemkin right?)
Also goes against the whole idea of “we want democratic control over our factories.”
I’d concede this element as present.
Again, I am not pro Stalin. I am not a tankie.
Stalin was an authoritarian leader (and terrible! bad! not good!), but his ideology lacked the characteristics that make an ideology fascist.
Guess what? Didn't read, lol.
Yeah - why learn what words mean when you can make up your own definitions?
I mean, have you met art?