Ask Lemmy

I drifted slowly from right-libertarian to a more leftish position: pro-union, pro-social-programs, skeptical of the compatibility of unregulated capitalism with individual freedom. Still no fan of tankies.

This wasn't from anyone sitting down and trying to convince me, though. Part of it was discovering how close right-libertarianism had always been to white-supremacism: some old Ron Paul newsletters were unpleasantly enlightening. Part was seeing people who called themselves "libertarians" line up with the far right to support state violence, especially against black and brown people. And heck, part was from getting richer and seeing how that worked.

I have a lot of sympathy for the frustrations that get young men into right-wing positions and occasionally I try to puncture some of the nonsense they're being fed.

Confronting them with the flaws in their thinking only makes them double down:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/202401/why-do-people-double-down

I'm in the middle of pulling a chat friend out of his programming. His only real problem was being raised in Texas by a Good Ol Boy single father, and once he got out from under his dad's wing, he started to realize that what he was taught simply isn't lining up with reality.

He started out as an incel, but now he's in therapy and has a girlfriend.

I think of it less as 'converting' and more just holding his hand while he figures out that his dad's advice was complete horseshit. It takes forever, and not everybody has the spoons to pull it off, but I do, so I will.

I don't argue with conservatives online to try and change their minds. I argue with them to change the minds of people reading the argument. For every social media user that posts content, there are a thousand lurkers. I post arguments so hopefully some of those lurkers might change their mind away from nationalist authoritarianism

Don't know if I've ever done it, but it was done to me.

So, it's obviously possible.

I'm pretty amused by the mix of comments where people are offering up themselves as irrefutable evidence, while others proclaim with certainty it can't be done. Actually a humbling perspective see people who've convinced themselves trying to convince others I don't exist.

Before deleting most of my Reddit stuff, I had a good conversation with a conservative about climate change. They pulled out all the standard right wing talking points, and I tried to remain respectful as I provided sources that refuted every one. One they threw out that I hadn’t heard of at the time was “global wobbling,” which I had to look up. 10- minutes later, I responded, with sources, saying that it was yet another thing the right throws out to confuse the issue for voters, but something climate scientists are well aware of and can measure and predict. At that point, they thanked me for all the info and said they had some reading to do. That’s the best I’ve ever gotten. Don’t know if they changed their view, though.

I was raised Right. Change is a long series of events that no one person or interaction triggers. Dogma is only truly changed from within.

Yes, and this is generally how it works:

1. Establish that you care about their perspective, and truly mean it. Most people can sniff out insincerity.
2. Start asking good faith questions about their position. If their beliefs are misguided, they will begin stumbling upon the flaws on their own. It’s okay to guide them gently with the questions, but don’t try to convince of them of any particular viewpoint, and don’t tell them they are wrong either directly or indirectly. That can undo any progress you made. Just focus on encouraging them to deeply analyze logic that you recognize to be flawed.
3. Only offer your perspective / opinions if you are asked directly. If you’ve done #1 and #2 well, this should start happening. I recommend understating your opinions. You don’t have to lie, but keep rants to a minimum and use soft language.
4. Be consistent. No one changes their world view overnight. It takes planting seeds, watering them consistently, and waiting.

P.S. If you are doing this correctly and with an open mind, there’s actually a good chance you might change your opinions on a some things, and that’s okay (as long as they aren’t harmful). It also can show them by example that opinions are flexible and should be based on evidence, not the other way around.

I was raised super conservative, and the two biggest steps on my journey to the left were Jon Stewart Bernie Sanders

Jon got my attention by pointing out the hypocrisy that did in fact exist on both sides. It gave me a space to exist where I wasn't just called a wrong dumb redneck and dismissed, but felt like he was actually trying to meet me where I was. That allowed me to let my guard down and actually listen to what he was saying.

Bernie Sanders came along in 2016 at a point where I would've called myself a centrist and basically did the same thing. Non judgmentally gave me a space to exist, listed some topics I cared about, then gave me a cause for them.

People don't like being told they're wrong. You cannot debate someone out of believing what they believe. What you can do is ask them questions. Get them to consider why they believe what they believe, and eventually they may start seeing contradictions and change their mind on their own.

No, because nobody is actually about discussions anymore. They want to be right. I've sat down and talked to plenty of right wingers, after and before all this crazy shit pushed everyone into tribalism, and it was mostly that we agreed on what was good but disagreed how to get there. I miss those times. Now it doesnt seem theres any middle ground to build on.

My "deprogramming," was more a series of small hints I was on the wrong path.

At first, people who tried arguing pushed me further toward the right. They came at me from inciting angles, making up facts to support their arguments. Yeah, the left bullshits too, and if you believe everything that supports your point of view without question - you're not that different from the people you hate.

I remember someone asking me to a Fahrenheit 9/11 showing at university, called me a Bush supporter when I wouldn't go. I wasn't, I just didn't like Michael Moore. Still don't for the above reasons.

Looking back, I could have gracefully immersed myself in other viewpoints if it weren't for the constant needling of wannabe academics and the automatic disdain they had for my views. I was attacked for even bringing up points because I was questioning myself. Honestly, I get why conservatives hate academia.

I will say some arguments stuck, though. Statements that sounded like complete nonsense in the moment make sense to me now, years later. It's not wasted breath to share your views with someone, they'll remember.

Regardless, I was still wrong and it wasn't other people's responsibility to educate me. I did that through meeting good, patient and understanding friends, actively trying to dismantle my biases, and through therapy. Oh, and some pretty intense acid trips. That shit will fast track you to a feeling of oneness with your community real quick.

Maybe but I feel I’ve made it worse sometimes too.

There’s a couple sayings. ‘The smart man sounds like crazy man to the stupid man’ and ‘You can’t win an argument with an idiot’.

As complex as it can be, it usually boils down to that or you just find out they’re rich, selfish, like control, and love schadenfreude.

I don't think anyone is going to change their views over an Internet post or conversation. Maybe someone might come around on a particular topic if an argument really resonates with them, but someone changing their entire worldview can take years. But sure, I think it's possible given enough conversation and slight nudging over time, given they aren't being more radicalized by other content every day.

I think contrapoints on YouTube 100% convinced me there is nothing strange or weird about trans people. They are just people and the way society treats them is wrong and we need to change that.

Not to say I hated trans people before but I didn't know much about it and Natalie did a thorough job explaining in a way that was easy to understand.

I was very conservative. My drift leftward started before the internet was enough of a thing to have video debate spaces, but online debate has given me a lot to think about and pushed me farther left. I credit George Carlin with some of my early movement. He's like an online debate, just against air.

I've had small success with my aunt by focusing on her love of children, explaining how many are dying under the needlessly cruel boot of Israel

From what I have figured out:

1. They need to already respect you in some way, this does not work on random strangers unless you are a top tier communicator or public figure

2. You need to identify the levers, for my aunt it is babies in danger. It will be different for different people, you need to do your homework

3. INFINITE PATIENCE and consistently reiterating your own genuine respect for them (this can be hard, you may need to dig deep), you need to show them that they aren't your enemy and that they have been lied to by people they have trusted for nefarious purposes

4. Play on the rights inherent distrust for the elite, Muskrat and co ARE the elite! Look at what he's doing to medicare!

5. It will take many, many sessions and you CANNOT falter or get impatient or it gives them an excuse to dismiss everything before

It's not easy, it takes time and effort, though it is doable

While I haven’t convinced anyone, I have seen things shift to a more class conscience level.

Luigi might have been the turning point. Slowly right wing spaces are turning anti rich.

I haven’t been able to convince anyone, but I’ve gotten people to agree if I just focus on “I want this in my country cause it would benefit me as a working class man”.

So imo it’s less about going head on and more about finding something you could agree with and just solidifying that, if they are gonna move left it’s gonna happen slowly by them observing their life.

I was raised Christian. I was taught homosexuality was a sin. I used to angrily preach at others to convert them or they'll burn in hell. etc. etc.

Fuck those people

That said, no, I have not succeeded in shifting anyone's views ever. Typically the people I encounter are beyond saving unless the things happening directly impact them.

My family including my parents moved from rural conservative to progressive left (probably somewhere around Social Democrat).

I've spent A LOT of time trying to truly reach out to conservatives, Trump supporters, from this angle. It requires a lot of time, but know two key things:

1. All you can do is plant seeds for neurons to grow. Belief structures get locked in like worn paths through a jungle, and so carving new ways requires an immense amount of time. You'll never see the fruits of your labor yourself — both because the vast majority of people have an ego they protect at all cost, and because by the time something "clicks" and new neural paths build, you'll be long gone.

2. Always recognize that your target audience is not the individual, themselves, necessarily, but the onlookers to the discussion. Always hold the high road. Always be courteous and let them throw the first punches. You'll have a much easier task convincing the fence-sitters whose egos aren't directly on the line as a direct participant in the conversation.

You can increase the probability you'll reach these people by ending the conversation on a cordial note once you realize arguments are starting to become circular. You also know you made some decent ground if they just ghost the conversation or delete their entire comment chain without warning. You pierced their ego; they feel embarrassed. You've given them food for thought. Try to also frame how you got out of the echo-chamber so it's not necessarily an attack on them, but an example of growth on yourself.

It's a thankless task, the victories you'll never see until we see it on a statistical level. The problem is that it's a competition for who commands their attention the most, and you'll never compete with Twitter, Fox News. You just have to hope they have that eureka moment, combined with perhaps a direct run-in with the fascism you warn about.

Most people do not respond to a single argument or fact. They accumulate multiple experiences. This is why the shift happens gradually for most people instead of instantly when they are confronted with facts.

Does it count if I did it to myself?

Yes, however…

1. Many people you meet online are not, strictly speaking, people.
2. Of the remainder, many are there for a reason.

I would wholeheartedly agree with the deprogrammer with one clarification: “known to you IRL” refers more to anonymity than to whether your interactions take place online, and the reason for that is important to consider.

You have two options:

1. Insist upon yourself, with presentable and short facts hard to deny
2. Argue from their perspective and draw their ire towards the party they (used to) support with their own morals

People change minds even if you don't see them do so directly, option 1 could pay off in the future as they shift certain narratives, understand certain topics and gain new morals or goals, but option 2 is immediately and pays off if they listen, someone who supports war would be turned off from supporting trump if you, say, used trumps incompetence to blame him for 'risking American troops'

I'm conservative, but I've never seen it happen in either direction. Internet arguments are more about the audience than the tankie you're arguing against.